Why the Rip-fence is on the right of the blade

[Niki]

Good day

I would like to ask a question that is long time in my head and after Scrit replied to the post "Lo-tech blade alignment", it came to me again.

All the TS's that I know are arranged so that the Rip fence is on the right of the blade but when we want to use the miter gauge or sliding table, they are on the left of the blade.

In my opinion a left side rip fence is more safe, because my hand (with or without push-stick or shoe), never had to go over the blade (guarded or not).

If I have to use an infeed table, I'm standing on the left of the infeed table and I never have to reach over or across to push the work.

Another benefit is that, if you set the blade to small "Tow-out" as Scrit explained, you get the it for both the rip fence and the miter gauge and you are less prone to get a Kickback.

On the picture, you can see my first Bench-saw that I had for 10 years and made the "Ripping" and "crosscutting" naturally on the left of the blade just because I felt much safer and comfortable on the left side (I did not know much about woodworking at that time).

What is your opinion...

Regards
niki

 

[Anonymous]

Niki

I wouil guess the fence is on the right as miost are right handed and so it makes sense to guide with your right hand

On my saw, the fence can be used equally on either side and I place it on the left when cutting with the blade angled as it tips to the right and a fence on that side would be dangerous

 

[DomValente]

I think, possibly, with a left handed fence the inclination would be to push the wood inward toward the blade, I suspect the rack of the teeth would then be inclined to kickback the timber. Just my opinion but I'm sure someone more knowledgable than me will have the answer.

Dom

 

[Scrit]

All the TS's that I know are arranged so that the Rip fence is on the right of the blade but when we want to use the miter gauge or sliding table, they are on the left of the blade.

I'll give you my personal take on this, Niki. The vast majority of woodworkers are right handed, which means that feeding, which is controlled by the right hand, is almost always with the fence to your right. The same applies to spindle moulders, overhand planers and band resaws (although not, for some reason, narrow bandsaws). In ripping there is a need for the stock to be pushed against the rip fence (by the left hand) and propelled forwards (by the right hand - using a push stick towards the end of the cut for safety). For a right handed person this appears to be an easier task to perform on a conventional saw than it is for a left handed person.

Conversely I believe that the mitre gauge or sliding table are on the left mainly because the rip fence is on the right, although as a right hander it seems to be easier for me to keep out of harms way if my right side is nearest the blade.

I'd be interested in other opinions on this because so far as I can tell rip saws have had "right-hand" fences since they first appeared.

BTW Niki, as you sinister (i.e. left-handed) by any chance?

One point to note is that there are two machines commonly found where the fence when used is on the operator's left - the pin router and the narrow bandsaw. These machines are often used freehand where good control is needed so it is a surprise that they are left-handed, so to speak, especially as (left) hand-tool contact injuries on the pin router are one of the hazards of using these machine. As to the narrow bandsaw I can see no reason why these machines are left-handed. Certainly in earlier times there were right-handed narrow bandsaws, and the last modern maker of such machines I know of was Inca who were making "left handed" narrow bandsaws until at least the mid-1990s.

In my opinion a left side rip fence is more safe, because my hand (with or without push-stick or shoe), never had to go over the blade (guarded or not).

I not sure how you work that one out. In ripping you need to push the workpiece against the fence with one hand and propel it forwards with the other. Left or right handed fences make no difference so far as I can see unless you are considering leaning over the fence and pulling the work onto the fence whilst pushing it forwards. In that case I can't imagine how you'd ever control the work, especially if you were trying to rip down a 16ft long piece. The point of a push stick is to ensure that there is a safe distance between the fingers and the blade at all times.

Another benefit is that, if you set the blade to small "toe-out" as Scrit explained, you get the it for both the rip fence and the mitre gauge and you are less prone to get a kickback.

On a standard table saw I'd set up freeboard only on the rip fence (and if I had it, the sliding table). The purpose is to ensure that the rising teeth contact the already sawn edge of the material as little as possible, thus spoiling the quality of cut. I really can't imagine it would be worth trying to set-up freeboard on the mitre fence. Whilst freeboard improves the surace quality of the cut I cannot see that it would make a significant difference to the risk of kickback, which is caused (in the main) by two things:

1. Tension in the wood causing the two pieces to pinch inwards as they exit behind the blade causing the material to be caught on the rising teeth at the raer of the blade. Cure: Use a riving knife or splitter

2. Tension in the wood causing the two pieces to bend outwards as they exit behind the blade and result in the wood binding between the rip fence and the rear of the blade. Cure: Use a "short" rip fence which does not extend behind the gullets of the front teeth, that way there can be no possibility of the material being trapped by the rip fence

Scrit

 

[DomValente]

Just my opinion but I'm sure someone more knowledgable than me will have the answer.

See, told you


Dom

 

[Niki]

Thank you for your replies

First, I'm very much Right-handed but...
It's very interesting...when I bought this table saw, I did not have any knowledge about TS's or the usage of them but, naturally I decided to extend it to the left and use the rip fence on the left side.

The way that I was cutting (and it can be wrong) is, my left hand leading the board and puling it toward the fence (free hand or the pusher with the round handle in the pic) and my right hand pushing from behind, forward and to the fence.

That way, I could continue to hold the board against the fence with my left hand even after it passed the blade, that way, I was holding the board against the fence all the way.

I felt that in case of Kickback, my two hands and body pressure will hold the board strong enough to the table.

During the 10 years that I worked with it, I did not have even "impending kickback" (and I did not use splitter or riving knife).

Today, I work with the EB PK 255 and I still feel a little bit "unsafe" when I cannot hold the board with my two hands all the way through the cut and I want to but, it's impossible with the right hand pushing and the left hand over the blade (not me). The other way, pushing with the left hand and leading with the right hand, is also impossible because usually I use infeed table that is on the way...

Maybe if you will try a "dry run" (blade retracted) with the fence at the left side of the blade, you will understand better what I'm talking about and also see that non of the hands has to pass over the blade at any point of the cut.

BTW, When I use the Circular saw, I'm holding it with my left hand and leading it with my right hand....do you thing that somebody made a mistake with my DNA...

niki

 

[Scrit]

I think that I'd argue that it is easier to push against the rip fence than pull into it - try ripping an 8 x 4ft sheet of plywood down the middle then argue your case, I'd say :lol: As to never having a kickback, that may well just be luck of the draw. I've had them, even with a riving knife and "short" rip fence, but rarely and never serious because I use push sticks and I stand out of the line of fire......

Scrit

 

[Niki]

Scrit
It's totally different, you would not expect me to run 8 x 4 on this kind of bench saw, I don't dare to do it even on the EB...for that you have the Slider...(I ordered all my kitchen cabinets boards and even though it cost me another 15~20 Pounds for the cuts, it was worse...precision and clean cut).

I'm talking about "normal" cabinet boards at "normal" lengths

Scrit..."Luck of the draw" for 10 years?

Best regards
niki

 

[Scrit]

OK, Niki, the 4ft wide sheet was an extreme, but long before I had a slider I used to rip down big sheets on a standard table saw (i.e puny) which was fitted with a home-made wide right hand extension table and a 1.5 metre long folding run off table, so from experience I know it can be done. I certainly wouldn't want to try pulling a 12in wide x 2in thick x 10ft long piece of oak into the fence for a rip cut - I feel it would be much easier to push against the rip fence. This is how I do things on my (normal) table saw.

Oh, and out of interest, on a true slider you make almost all the panel rip cuts on the carraige using the crosscut fence flip-over stops and not against the rip fence. The rip fence is actually only used only for the last few narrow cuts on panel stock and as a sort of length stop - so efficient operation of such a machine when handling panel stock is very different from the techniques used on a table saw (and in my opinion much safer)

Scrit

 

[Keith Smith]

As far as I know saws have the fence to the right so that right handers can feed the timber through the machine while standing to the left hand side of the cutting line to avoid any of being shot in the groin by a 3kW offcut crossbow bolt.

Whereas with the narrow bandsaw there is no risk of kickback so the operator can stand in line with the work making it more practical for right handers to fit the fence to the left.

Nothing sinister about it at all :wink: :lol:


Keith

 

[Anonymous]

Today I have been cutting up MFC boards, 10 x 6ft, I know I would rather push these through rather than trying to pull them through.

 

[Niki]

OK, Scrit, one thing I learnt about you is that, for sure started woodworking before the "Metric revolution" took place in UK but no problem I worked with both measuring systems...

I said "normal" cabinet boards not "Jumbo" 10ft long The longest board that I had to cut was 4~5ft long.

I think that it's a matter of how one was taught, for example, if I'll take a British baby to Japan and talk to him in Japanese till the age of 18, when he will come back to UK, English will look very odd to him...for example...in English you say "I must study", in Japanese you say "If I will not study it's not good", same meaning, different expression (by the way, Japanese is the easiest language in the world...well, the spoken language but, English is also not one of the easiest to write).

But, the best example is...How do you feel when you come to main land Europe and have to drive on the "Wrong" side of the road after you drive all the time on the "Right" side...

So, I'm getting use to the "new side" of the table saw but that's the main reason that I "invented" the "Feeder rollers" and the "Hold down rollers", I still don't feel 100% safe.

niki

 

[devonwoody]

I prefer the fence also on the left hand side of blade.

My Triton workcentre video trainer shows the owner demonstrator also sets up the fence at this orientation. (it could be either side)
The Triton has a splitter in addition to the riving knife so IMHO that means the timber should not drift away from the fence after passing the blade, perhaps thats the reason that Triton were happy to put this set up in the training video.

Niki, thank you for raising the issue its always been one of my contentions since having the workcentre against replacing to a tablesaw. I think to stand in line of a possible kickback all your working time at one of these machines must be nerve wracking.

 

[Scrit]

Niki

As far as I can tell the stand on the left, fence on the right approach was adopted by all European and American manufacturers at a very early date. European manufacturers certainly still adhere to the same layout - take a look at SCM, Robland, Felder, Guillet, Scheppach, etc (a good selection of companies, countries and levels of equipment there) and you'll see what I mean

As to a plank 300mm x 50mm x 3000mm being too "big", all I can say is don't ever try making a staircase - stringers are generally bigger than that!

But, the best example is...How do you feel when you come to main land Europe and have to drive on the "Wrong" side of the road after you drive all the time on the "Right" side...

Well, having lived in the Netherlands, Belgium and the USA (all of which countries drive on the right) I have no problems in driving on either side, although I will admit to trying to change gear with the window winder a few times when I returned to the UK :lol: But I'm still not about to try putting the rip fence on the left and pulling work onto it.

Tot ziens! :roll:

I think to stand in line of a possible kickback all your working time at one of these machines must be nerve wracking.

JJ, if you are standing in the correct position you are never behind the material. As "Smitty" says you are standing to the left and you don't get near the blade because it should be guarded and you should be using push sticks

Scrit

 

[Jaco]

My Rockwell is made for using the fence both sides and also the mitre unit.
It also has a full-down splitter which keeps the stock from drifting once past the blade.

I agree with Tony about using a "left" set up on an angled blade, but then need bring in the "spring wheel" the keep the stock pressed against the fence.

I also keep way left of anything moving through the saw. It can launch a projectile, but is about 200km/hr slower than the RAS!

 

[devonwoody]

But Scrit, kickback happens.
So you most probably are standing in line of fire?

edit
Sorry scrit I missed your last posting (re position)

 

[Scrit]

On long pieces (like that ten footer) you have to stand to one side in any case for most of the cut. On shorter pieces, call me a big girls blouse if you like, but I still find it sensible to adopt a position where my groin is not in line of sight between the sawblade and the workshop door......... So whilst I've experienced kickbacks on both table and panel saws I've generally not been in the way of them. Now on the thicknesser, it's completely different as there it's sometimes necessary to get behind the timber and give it a good old shove. Thankfully that machine's got anti-kickback pawls!

Scrit

 

[Niki]

Devonwoody
I just downloaded and watched the Triton workcentre video and saw that the rip fence is positioned on the left of the blade.

So, it looks like a few thousands of guys are using the "left rip fence"...

Many times I find it easier to stand at the left side of the table top and guide the work with both hands, kind of, pulling the work to the fence and sliding it forward. My hands are never over the blade...

With all the other (than Triton and my homemade saw) I should use long push stick but I don't feel safe with it because push stick only pushes the work and it can kickback into my face...so, I'm using push-shoe that I can press the work down to the table on wide (longer) area near the blade and in case that the kickback starts to generate, I can "kill it when it's a baby"

I'm using push shoes as in the pics but, my hand still has to pass over the blade and in the case of left fence...never...

Yep, depends how you are used to do it...

Scrit
I was sure that you have an automatic car and don't have to "mix the gasolin" all the time

niki

 

[Scrit]

Niki

With a long push stick your hands are never over the blade, either. They are always behind it because you should not be pushing through all that far. What I'm having difficulty in understanding is how you reckon you will get a kickback which will push the push stick back into your face. If the saw is used with a riving knife, crown guard and the rip fence in the "short" position you're already taken more than 90% of the kickback potential out of the set-up and only the most reactive of timber, e.g. burrs, will be able to make any problems. The push stick should have a curved end like this commercially-made example:

and is held with several fingers, but not the thumb, curled under the grip end so that in the unlikely case that you experience a kickback it will tend to knock the push stick backwards and downwards out of the hand. Because the conventional long push stick will always leave your hand(s) behind the blade the chances of digit to blade contact are indeed minimal. The type of "overshot" push stick you use is more dangerous because it leaves you leaning further over the saw in a less-balanced stance at the end of the cut and furthermore allows your hand to travel inside the "danger zone" around the blade whilst potentially placing the arm above the blade. Simply put that type of push device is not acceptable in a commercial shop in the UK (and as far as I know the rest of the EU as well) because it is regarded as dangerous and I see no reason to use it or promote it, despite it's popularity in hobby shops the USA.

BTW your last photo shows the right arm extended alongside the blade - were you to try that on a 24in rip saw (with about 9in depth of cut) you'd be in grave danger of amputating the arm, especially if the nose guard was missing or misadjusted.

Take a look at the Wadkin SO rip saw above and the dangers of leaning over a blade become more apparent.

In case you think I'm being prescriptive, here, I'm trying to present a general approach which will work safely in almost all cases as opposed to a specific approach which might work on the Triton or your saw but which could prove downright dangerous when used on machinery of a different design.

.......in case that the kickback starts to generate, I can "kill it when it's a baby"

But kickbacks simply can't be killed this way. They actually happen way too fast for you to react and do anything at all, hence the need to prevent rather than cure with springs, rollers, etc. Probably the only sure fire way to avoid 100% of kickbacks is to use a power feeder in conjunction with a riving knnife, crown guard and rip fence in the short position, an approach that more and more commercial shops are adopting and which Felder users are certainly made aware of by their supplier. Out of interest a 10in (254mm) saw blade travelling at a reasonably typical 4,000 rpm has a peripheral speed of approx. 174 ft/sec (53 m/sec) or 119mph (190 kmph), i.e. a bit faster than a fast bowler can manage in cricket (as an aside I believe Shoaib Akhtar currently holds the world fast bowling record at 159.5 kmph or 99.1 mph) and in cricket the batsman knows where the ball is coming from because he has a sight screen and the benefit of some time to gauge the ball, although personally I can't handle fast bowlers (and the guys I've batted against aren't in the same league as Akhtar) so I'm not about to try second guessing when a kickback will occur on the grounds that prevention is better than cure

.......I was sure that you have an automatic car and don't have to "mix the gasolin" all the time

Sorry to disappoint you, Niki, but I've always stirred my own, thanks. I've driven LH drive and RH drive cars here in the UK as well as LH and RH drive cars sur le Continent without problems other than the occasional knuckle rapping exercise when I've swapped over

Scrit

 

[Anonymous]

[ The vast majority of woodworkers are right handed, which means that feeding, which is controlled by the right hand,
Scrit

Wow! My guess agrees with Scrit who knows about stuff like this