why are they called dividers?

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bugbear":1apdmlcb said:
Jacob":1apdmlcb said:
The A&C style double kerf DTs

I'd have said (with some confidence, although I'm never as "confident" as Jacob) that the use of non-zero-width-apex pins is both wider and earlier than A&C?

BugBear
Of course it is. Wider and earlier than A&C that is.
It's that they seem to have fixed the style, or set the fashion somehow.
I'm not saying that it's wrong - you can do what you like, but I am saying it's not "right" in any particular sense. The trade seems to agree as the single kerf pin seems to be generally favoured. Probably because it's easiest. Personally I quite like it too.
 
Getting back to the topic of dividers. Tricks so far:
1 the offset line way of dividing another line, done with dividers and parallel rule or similar. NB easily overlooked design of parallel rule is the rolling rule - basically a long cylinder like a rolling pin which you just roll and hold steady for a parallel line.
2 with a scale applying the above to establish for example 15/14ths of an inch, so that you can mark up a 14tpi guide for saw sharpening, or any other regular spacing (equal sized DTs on a tool box?)
3 Alf's link, Robs description, Schwarzy's book, way of equally spacing for 2 kerf DTs and similar - shelf housing? This is presumably the same as DC's method (which he is being a bit coy about :lol: ).
4 What would be useful would be to do equal spacing as per 1 above but along the line without offset and parallel rules. Actually this is quite simple.
Benidorm has just come on so I'll carry on later.
 
3. Dividers work for spacing both wider sockets and single entry sockets.

Alf's link did the job nicely....

David C
 
Let's not forget the fact dividers work when setting out geometric shapes and patterns for structures as well as inlays and establishing proportion in pieces being worked upon or constructed. These forms can be as simplistic or complex as one desires and based upon whichever measuring system you wish to work to/use (Foot, cubit, yard, barley corn, metre, etc.) and when paired with the square. The use of dividers/compass is traceable as far back as history allows and they can be shop made, smith made or store bought, but are well worthwhile having amongst a tool kit.
 
David C":17uwkzsm said:
3. Dividers work for spacing both wider sockets and single entry sockets.

Alf's link did the job nicely....

David C
Doesn't do single kerf DTs does he? I might have missed it, but not on page 2 either. http://www.mikes-woodwork.com/ThroughDovetails.htm
He's got some very fancy kit though, I wonder if he's a brain surgeon in ordinary life.

I'l have another look.
 
OK had a look. He doesn't mention single kerf DTs but he does mention adjusting by trial and error. But in fact you can do better than that. You start with trial and error, but sharpen up on it.
Say you want to mark halfway between A and B. You adjust the dividers as near as you can, then starting at A ,walk them to B.
If you miss B, error under or over, what you do next, without taking the point of the divder out of the approximate mid way mark, is adjust the other point to halve the error, as near as you can judge.
The do it all again starting at A. The error is reduced and may be zero. If not, you merely repeat the process, halving the error again,
You will probably hit it near enough 2nd time, more than 3 goes unlikely.

If you want to divide into three you repeat the process as above starting with a stab at adjusting the dividers to a third. When you correct the error on the last step instead of halving it, you add or take away a third (as near as you can judge). Then repeat the process as often as you need. 2 or 3 goes should do it.

Then ditto for 4, you adjust the error by 1/4, and so on ad infinitum.

Sounds tedious but in fact you get a very accurate result surprisingly quickly.

There is an explanation of why it produces a quicker and more accurate result than you would anticipate, but it's a bit long winded!
 
David C":d9c6sn82 said:
For single kerf marking, step across from half pin mark, to half pin mark, no overlap.

David C
Yes obviously, but how would you set the dividers to achieve this?
 
Right!

I'm quite pleased to have discovered dividers, although somewhat late in the day!
The other outcome of this thread (for me at least) is in realising that the offset ruler thing for setting out DTs as described by Joyce, and Wearing, is basically pointless and complicated. Dead stupid in fact! So if you have the books I recommend turning to the appropriate pages and making a note.
They get many things wrong in the books. That's OK nobody is perfect. But they get repeated and everybody gets it wrong.
 
I think dividers can be quite useful on their own, but can be more useful when used in conjenction with other tools - rather in the same way that a marking knife is more useful used in conjunction with, say, a try-square or sliding bevel.

If dividers are used in conjunction with a sector (as Alf pointed out earlier in the thread),or with a good rule, they can do even more than if used on their own. They can make their own rule, of course - set dividers to any arbitrary length, step off along a clean, straight stick, return the marks all round the stick with square and knife/pencil, and voila - one homemade ruler!

What Jacob says about setting dividers by 'trial and error' is quick, and plenty accurate enough for most woodworking tasks. It isn't accurate enough for engineering tasks, but that need not concern the wood-only person at all. Wood doesn't work like metal, and doesn't behave like metal, so the techniques are different.

If anybody does need to set dividers accurately for some metalworking or similar purpose, they can be set within a couple of thousands of an inch by carefully placing the (sharp!) points in the engraved lines of a good quality steel rule. Adjust until the points drop neatly into the middle of each engraved line (the screw adjustable ones, used with a light touch, are useful here). You can either use a magnifier, or 'feel' the points in the line - hard to describe, but easy with a bit of practice and a light hand. Transfer the mark with delicacy and feeling - dividers are prone to flex if used with a heavy hand. This technique is not, of course, necessary for wood marking - the stuff will change dimension more than two thou if it comes on to rain the same afternoon!
 
Cheshirechappie":advgwsu4 said:
I think dividers can be quite useful on their own, but can be more useful when used in conjenction with other tools
Yes no doubt but I was surprised at how much you can do with them on their own.
What Jacob says about setting dividers by 'trial and error' is quick, and plenty accurate enough for most woodworking tasks. It isn't accurate enough for engineering tasks,
Oh yes it is! Or could be. That method for subdividing a length is potentially very precise - if the kit itself is precise enough. You would soon need a magnifying glass for fractioning the error and a pair of dividers capable of fine adjustment.
You start with trial and error but then set about eliminating the error.
You could say it's deceptively accurate. Deceptive because where i say "halving the error" (or thirding, quartering etc) you don't actually halve the error on the divider setting (e.g. reduce it from 4 to 2mm), if you "halve" accurately you get zero error (e.g. reduce from 4 to 0) if you were a dead shot, but in fact realistically you would have another, but very much smaller, error.
 
Got a pair of these http://www.axminster.co.uk/axminster-ax ... rod377322/
Somebody recommended them earlier. He must have been lucky, mine were crap, sending them back. Really badly made.

Have been practicing the error reducing technique on pieces of lined paper. If you get the first try near enough it only takes one more go to get it spot on (in woodworking terms). But two goes is the most you need. More for engineering precision (if you dividers are up to it; fine adjustment etc).
It's quicker than any other method by far.
 
Jacob":zj6vegs8 said:
Got a pair of these http://www.axminster.co.uk/axminster-ax ... rod377322/
Somebody recommended them earlier. He must have been lucky, mine were rubbish, sending them back. Really badly made.

Have been practicing the error reducing technique on pieces of lined paper. If you get the first try near enough it only takes one more go to get it spot on (in woodworking terms). But two goes is the most you need. More for engineering precision (if you dividers are up to it; fine adjustment etc).
It's quicker than any other method by far.

Hit evil bay and you'll pick up a very decent old set for a few £. My son bid on an old adjustable 8" compass (Lockable with fine adjuster) made by Union and picked it up for less than £3 with postage and is now scribing circles and dividing everything in sight in the workshop. :lol:
 
Weird coincidence - just happened across this thread; finished making these last night:

compasses-0001.jpg


I didn't make them to work as dividers especially, but there's room next to where the pencil fits in for a second spike (if I can find another masonry nail!). They open to about 13" (but you could use a longer pencil stub!).

:)

E.

Edit: I'd probably glue a nail into a dowel instead (for the dividers). And you get various grades of line blackness too!
 

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Modernist":xpbuc257 said:
You'll be wanting a set of these then :lol:

http://www.fine-tools.com/st306468a.jpg

A snip at €110
Thought about it (seriously - I'm into dividers!) and went for these instead.
They are OK. Cheap but work well - nifty quick release split collet thing which probably is the weakest link and won't last. Much better than Axminster's garbage. I now how have two Axi faulty offerings free of charge after full refunds as they didn't want them back. This suggests that the fact that they are crap has not escaped them. They shouldn't be selling them at all then, it's a sort of low level fraud - they know that some innocent punters will accept them in good faith.
 
Revisiting this site - thought I'd look at Gunter scales
http://www.nzeldes.com/HOC/Gunter.htm
but then its the diagonal scale which does the job
http://www.fullchisel.com/blog/?p=607
and enables you to take off measurements in inches and hundreths, or any other units and fraction, according to the design of the scale.
This'd be all you'd need to set dividers for any tpi saw measurement. What's more, given a drawing board, set square and a fine pen, you could draw your own.
 
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