Who would buy a "Pentz" style Cyclone for £395

[Anonymous]

Well - each time I start up the extractor you can see this fine haze of dust coming off the bag - if you "beat" the bag then even more comes off - this is not dust which has settled onto the outside of the bag and then is being blow off - why should it be - the bag has an "outbound" draft when in normal use so no dust would settle on it

You are right - some of this extraneous dust does come directly from my work at the lathe (my main dust producer) - but the reason for this is that the extractor is not delivering the required CFM to the lathe because the bag has been blinded by the dust.

So my approach is
a) build a unit which retains ALL of the dust
b) build a unit which does not have filters which "blind" filters quickly

This will mean that the CFM stays high - and the dust which is captured stays where I want in (in the waste drum)

This unit is going to be sucking 800 CFM - my workshop is about 1200 CF which means all the air in the workshop has the opportunity of going through the filters evey minute and a half - obviously this will not explicity happen - but I hope by position the work and the cyclone apart I will create a degree of circulation of air which will be good too

 

[Bean]

How do you know that the dust hasn't been thrown into the air by your saw blade/router cutter/planer blades/thicknesser ????

Simple answer is you don't. The fact that it will be thrown out by any equipment that you use to cut with is the truth, regardless of the cfm it may or may not be drawing. If you believe that any form of extraction will completely cure the problem you are only fooling yourself.

 

[neilc]

Warning - with anything from the US make sure its suitable for 50Hz not 60Hz

The US is all 60Hz and if you run one of their motors over here there will be that acrid smell of burning and then and if you are lucky a bang as the motor says I DO NOT LIKE THIS - by by

Not really all that worried about the 60Hz thing. I have a unisaw working away with no problems for nearly a year now. If the motor were to over heat and blow it can be rewound.

Certainly it looks like the mutts nuts, what with that sexy gloss black finishand all. I reckon if I had the space and the cash it'd be pretty high on the shortlist.

My thoughts exactly.

If it's $845USP you'll be paying a similar amount in GBP (or €1,250 odd) when it reaches your door after shipping, import dut and Vat. Not too mention the Hz problem. Without a motor would be ideal but as they are totally manufactured in Taiwan it's unlikely.
In any case what's the chances of something as delicate (shipping wise) arriving without dents or other damage?
There was talk at some stage of Axminster starting to carry a cyclone (which could well be a repaint job of the PSI unit) sometime next year but it's was only rumour. Who knows?

I have made contact with the company regarding shipping cost and the possibility of getting it with a 50Hz motor. As mentioned above the motor is not a ball breaker for me. I'm waiting for a reply email from them, I'll let ye know how I get on.
As regards Axminster my new workshop won't be ready till around Christmas or just after so if they had one available for sale by then great. I got a Jet planner from them a couple of months ago and was very impressed by the service. (Building a house is a great way to get new tools with SWMBO approval-kitchen, wardrobes etc.. to be done)
Neil

 

[engineer one]

ok, maybe i am being silly, but i am not sure that an extractor shifting
800 cfm is going to change the air in your workshop every 11/2 minutes
since that is not its job. the lathe is creating airflow, and that is what you
are extracting from, so why would there be a complete workshop
change?

from what i have seen, none of the cfm figure tell you with what size hose,
and unless the exhaust is outside the workshop, then you are re-circulating
the air anyway!

no matter how big the extraction motor, you will never get rid of
all the dust.

i think from looking, unless you enclose the dust bag inside a cylinder
air and dust will leak through the bag/plastic unit. and many of the
proprietary units have very difficult to undo clips or clamps
which allow the dust to drop out.

actually i agree with bean on this.

paul :wink:

 

[Bean]

actually i agree with bean on this.

paul

Scary :wink:

 

[engineer one]

well in this place us engineers must stick together even if we
disagree about the value of some forms of metalworking :lol:

what does interest me though is the airflow within the table
saw casing, because i think that causes many problems with
proper extraction. hence my experiment with the 744.

paul :wink:

 

[ivan]

Dust Checking:
You can do a rough and ready check by turning out the lights (at night!) and using a bright narrow beam to backlight the dust in the air. (Like a sunbeam can indoors) A low voltage 'spot' fitting or old car spotlight would probably do. Of course you can only actually see the stuff that's too big to be any harm....But if it's there, so is the finer stuff!

Cyclone:
The problem with a forum project is probably too many conflicting requirements? Thinking about this further, glass fire/lay up resin is cheap and low tec to use, and the mould is usually wooden. Split vertically a half cone and half cylinder would mean 2 moulds, and 4 mouldings. You make joins by moulding in a flange, and then glue/pop rivet the flanges together with resin. Mouldings can be cut with woodworking tools and bits patched on with resin and pieces of glass cloth heath robinson fashion (works for boats!)

There's an outfit called Glassplies sells all the stuff by mail. Would be srtonger than the USA plastic one, but not as pretty as the smooth surface would be inside.

 

[engineer one]

ivan, at last a sensible solution to this idea, one could actually
have made cones which were long, and then people could
cut them down.

if you want pretty outside, you can always cover it. :lol:

i think we generally use smaller machines than the americans,
so maybe we need smaller dx machinery.

paul :wink:

 

[ivan]

Musing on since posting earlier, with the cylinder in halves, the outlet and spiral could be easily fixed in place, and sized to suit your own requirement, likewise the inlet. The flanges would make fixing a ply top/extractor mounting quite simple. Only tools needed for glass fibreing are a few cheap disposable paintbrushes and maybe a lay up roller, probably under ten quid. All we'd need to agree is diameter and cone length? Anyone fancy hiring out 2 moulds?

 

[engineer one]

the good thing is that you could make the moulds of thin ply,or bendy mdf.

by the by is that getting more difficult to get, anyone got any addresses
near london for suppliers??

paul :wink:

 

[engineer one]

just checked out the october issue of better homes and gardens wood.
two interesting things in there.

1/ an article about air cleaners like the small jet ones. some
interesting information and data.

2/ oneida are doing a cyclone kit for 150 bucks that fits on a 5-10 gallon
bucket, seems to have decent value for sanders and small pipes.
anyone in the states used it and what do you think about it,
the review looks pretty good.

paul :wink:

 

[ivan]

Engineer one, try Silverman I think they have outlets NW and E of London. The one here in Devon stocks bendy ply, down to about 1.5?mm, this latter in 1.2m sq sheets.

Ivan

 

[Barry Burgess]

I have been having a discussion with the master him self - Bill Pentz replied to so comments about cyclone diameters on an Australian website
http://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/showthread.php?t=35734&page=5
He states that the smaller diameter cyclones down to 13.5" give better dust separation but require bigger impellors and that 4" pipe can be used with the smaller diameters - go read the comments for yourselves
Barry

 

[Jake]

I have been having a discussion with the master him self - Bill Pentz ... that 4" pipe can be used with the smaller diameters

use 4” to support 350 CFM

This was pretty much exactly the throughput of the big Camvac that you were saying was inadequate in that big thread a while back.

 

[engineer one]

yes jake but is there a cyclone on the camvac????

i think personally that some of the figures are a bit dubious,
but also slanted toward the americans who have more and bigger
machines. i think we tend to have only one machine going at a time.

we certainly don't have the space to have 24 inch impellors, that are
10-12 feet high.

barry has kind of proved that a smaller item will work, but that is
practical work, and kind of defies the figures. i personally still think
a great deal is to do with the airflow from within the machine itself,
and the small extractors on almost all the machines.

having read some of BP's file last year he talks a lot about blockages
causing the problems, so the answer surely is to cut down on the
ability of lumps to get into the pipework, by having a pre filter
of for instance garden mesh, so that the big lumps will drop down,
and then the dust would be held more in the air. another problem is
the over use of 90 degree bends. these are almost certain to cause
some blockages, and the transition from one size to another can
cause build ups.

i think a pre mesh, then only using 30/45and 60 degree bends
will cut down accumulation and thus many of the problems a big
impellor is supposed to sort out.

paul :wink:

 

[Jake]

yes jake but is there a cyclone on the camvac????

That's irrelevant - a cyclone is only a way of achieving good filtration without reducing throughput too much.

 

[engineer one]

i don't think it is irrelevant at all jake.
the plan with the cyclone is to reduce the stuff that gets to the
filter, and then into the motor or its impellor.

and that is where different people have different ideas about
controlling the air.

as i have said i think bill's figures are a little too empirical
and also take little or no account of our using 250 volts and 60 mhz.

anyway, what we should maybe consider is the clear plastic type
of cyclone that is promoted on bill's site. must see how easy that
would be to make for a kit. that certainly should be much cheaper. :twisted:

paul
:wink:

 

[Barry Burgess]

yes jake but is there a cyclone on the camvac????

That's irrelevant - a cyclone is only a way of achieving good filtration without reducing throughput too much.

Its not irrelevant, the smaller diameter cyclones are increasing the airflow due to the tight turns of the cyclone so you are achieving better airflows. I am using 6" from the impellor to the cyclone and 4" air ramp into the cyclone and a 15" diameter cyclone with a 13.5" impellor. I am getting no dust or particles going to the filter and cannot see any visible dust passing along the pipes to the filter. I am not getting any drop in airflow which is not what you are getting as the Camvac fills up??

 

[Jake]

i don't think it is irrelevant at all jake.
the plan with the cyclone is to reduce the stuff that gets to the
filter, and then into the motor or its impellor.

Which is important with low pressure equipment because the filters clogging up has a massive impact on throughput.

have said i think bill's figures are a little too empirical
and also take little or no account of our using 250 volts and 60 mhz.

I don't disagree, but I wasn't the person using Bill's figures to dismiss a 350CFM throughput as adequate in the first place.

 

[Jake]

Its not irrelevant, the smaller diameter cyclones are increasing the airflow due to the tight turns of the cyclone so you are achieving better airflows.

Bill P was saying 4" pipe can support 350CFM throughput. Which is pretty much what a 3 motor Camvac does, and which you said wasn't good enough.

Cyclone or not is entirely irrelevant - the aim is to get XXXCFM at the machine and filtration to .5 microns or whatever.

That said, the cyclone is an excellent way of keeping CFM up on a low pressure system where filter clogging has a disproportionate effect on the throughput figure. That doesn't mean that 350CFM to 0.5 micron with cyclone is any better than 350CFM to 0.5 micron without cyclone.

And it doesn't mean that 350CFM is or isn't enough - it is just that there seem to be double standards here as to whether it is enough or not, dependent on the means of getting there. That doesn't make sense to me.

I am using 6" from the impellor to the cyclone and 4" air ramp into the cyclone and a 15" diameter cyclone with a 13.5" impellor. I am getting no dust or particles going to the filter and cannot see any visible dust passing along the pipes to the filter.

Good - seems to indicate that 350CFM is enough then - a conclusion that I'm happy with!

I use my Camvac right next to my machines with a 4', 4" hose, I can't see any dust in the exhaust air, and there is no way it could get through the three layer filter.

I am not getting any drop in airflow which is not what you are getting as the Camvac fills up??

Doesn't happen - the high pressure means that filter clogging doesn't affect throughput to any discernable degree.