Where to get rabbet for 1/16"?

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sploo":1z7zj0sl said:
That said, I suspect it's a whole load easier using a PC based active crossover than the black magic of fiddling with passive electrical filters (where one part of a circuit can affect another). There's certainly more scope for bludgeoning a decent driver with quirks (e.g. resonance peaks) than it is with passive filtering anyway.

That's pretty much what excites me. That - and not having to have a whole workshop full of capacitors and resistors and inductors (or the means to wind them). I guess some of the optimisation programs are handy to try to use standard values.

I'd be really interested to know how well the Hypex and MiniDSP and GroundSound plate amps with DSP work out - the two-way Hypes and MiniDSP ones are relatively inexpensive if you consider 4-off amp channels and a bunch of crossover components, and they are reusable unlike a crossover. Even if they lack sonic subtlety, the convenience as a design tool looks excellent.

I don't kid myself that I can build something that will be as good as a pair of ATC SCM50As, but by not buying a pair I will have a pretty big warchest to have fun with DIY, and achieving a 90:10 solution would make me very happy indeed. Though 'not buying something that's rather expensive' is probably a weak value argument, really.
 
jmansion":1bbf33xr said:
sploo":1bbf33xr said:
That said, I suspect it's a whole load easier using a PC based active crossover than the black magic of fiddling with passive electrical filters (where one part of a circuit can affect another). There's certainly more scope for bludgeoning a decent driver with quirks (e.g. resonance peaks) than it is with passive filtering anyway.

That's pretty much what excites me. That - and not having to have a whole workshop full of capacitors and resistors and inductors (or the means to wind them). I guess some of the optimisation programs are handy to try to use standard values.

I'd be really interested to know how well the Hypex and MiniDSP and GroundSound plate amps with DSP work out - the two-way Hypes and MiniDSP ones are relatively inexpensive if you consider 4-off amp channels and a bunch of crossover components, and they are reusable unlike a crossover. Even if they lack sonic subtlety, the convenience as a design tool looks excellent.

I don't kid myself that I can build something that will be as good as a pair of ATC SCM50As, but by not buying a pair I will have a pretty big warchest to have fun with DIY, and achieving a 90:10 solution would make me very happy indeed. Though 'not buying something that's rather expensive' is probably a weak value argument, really.
I've got a mate that builds amps for fun, but he concedes that there's no way he can build something (cost wise) to compete with a decent (i.e. not snake oil) amp that's made in a factory. Speakers however are a different ball game - as soon as you get over the £100 mark (possibly even £50) you can definitely DIY something for much less than the cost of a commercial unit. I.e. with a bit of care, you'll end up with something very good for very decent money.

I really must get round to trying that crossover software; I just lack the time these days (it's probably been 5 years since I last built any speakers).
 
sploo":3bj00ekf said:
I really must get round to trying that crossover software; I just lack the time these days (it's probably been 5 years since I last built any speakers).

The downside with Ekio seems to be that it wants to sit between ASIO inputs and outputs, so something like Virtual Audio Cable or VB-Audio Virtual Cable might be necessary, depending on whether you have an appropriate sound card.

I haven't actually tried it yet, I've been assembling bits and pieces, and I'm wondering whether a Linux solution wouldn't be easier (if less graphical).
 
jmansion":2exdkur9 said:
sploo":2exdkur9 said:
I really must get round to trying that crossover software; I just lack the time these days (it's probably been 5 years since I last built any speakers).

The downside with Ekio seems to be that it wants to sit between ASIO inputs and outputs, so something like Virtual Audio Cable or VB-Audio Virtual Cable might be necessary, depending on whether you have an appropriate sound card.

I haven't actually tried it yet, I've been assembling bits and pieces, and I'm wondering whether a Linux solution wouldn't be easier (if less graphical).
This (http://rtaylor.sites.tru.ca/2013/06/25/ ... are-howto/) might be useful?
 
sploo":l3hya866 said:

Definitely! However what is slightly odd is the use of ecasound for XO and sox for dither, when it would seem that sox could probably do all of it: http://sox.10957.n7.nabble.com/impl...ossovers-using-Sox-LADSPA-plugins-td5464.html.

So little time - so much to learn - I wish I could retire right away. :-(

Potentially the sound quality could be awesome (modulo the rank amateur designing the crossover). Consider the Pink Faun card driving 3-off I2S DACs. If you can get the resolution expanded to 32 bits on the way into the crossover system and then to the DACs after scaling, and if the system clock really is any good, then maybe the 'do the volume control after the crossover' stuff becomes unnecessary. I confess I eBay'd an Audiolab 8200AP largely to do that role, also hoping that HDMI might be better than OK with it. When I bought the 8000Ps they really were based in Huntingdon which is quite close to me, but I think now its a warehouse and IAG is largely run from China.

(And in defense of their recent products, I bought a new Q-DAC for 200 quid and I love it as a USB audio device, also to drive headphones)

Anyway - do we get the record for going off-topic on a woodworking board? Can't see why anyone would buy a router except to make round holes for drivers, personally! ;-)
 
jmansion":g2mlotlz said:
sploo":g2mlotlz said:

Definitely! However what is slightly odd is the use of ecasound for XO and sox for dither, when it would seem that sox could probably do all of it: http://sox.10957.n7.nabble.com/impl...ossovers-using-Sox-LADSPA-plugins-td5464.html.

So little time - so much to learn - I wish I could retire right away. :-(

Potentially the sound quality could be awesome (modulo the rank amateur designing the crossover). Consider the Pink Faun card driving 3-off I2S DACs. If you can get the resolution expanded to 32 bits on the way into the crossover system and then to the DACs after scaling, and if the system clock really is any good, then maybe the 'do the volume control after the crossover' stuff becomes unnecessary. I confess I eBay'd an Audiolab 8200AP largely to do that role, also hoping that HDMI might be better than OK with it. When I bought the 8000Ps they really were based in Huntingdon which is quite close to me, but I think now its a warehouse and IAG is largely run from China.

(And in defense of their recent products, I bought a new Q-DAC for 200 quid and I love it as a USB audio device, also to drive headphones)

Anyway - do we get the record for going off-topic on a woodworking board? Can't see why anyone would buy a router except to make round holes for drivers, personally! ;-)

[On going off topic, better to be hung for a sheep, etc...]

The cynic in me suggests that you won't have any audio sources good enough to make any of the above worth the candle. It's one of the differences between the pro- and amateur approaches: is it "good enough" to serve its purpose? If so, use it!

It's also instructive to look at the entire recording chain, from microphone to listener's ears, and see where the most egregious distortions of the original sound occur.

The fact you can make nth order filters doesn't mean they are nice in use, or that they don't introduce issues of their own. My dad, who was an excellent hi-fi designer in his own right, created some very interesting three-way active speakers, but found he had to significantly reduce the slope of the crossovers because the effect of too-steep ones was just nasty. IIRC, he settled on 12dB/octave.

Many of the fundamentals* don't change in a digital world: for speakers, how resonant or otherwise is the enclosure, and where on the spectrum? Likewise the drivers - how peaky are they, and how do they tail off out of band, and most importantly, how well damped is everything?

Back EMF has been mentioned - if the amp's source Z is correct (i.e. low enough) it won't be significant. There's also been mention of diffraction at HF - actually irrelevant unless you're designing something with slot apertures for a specific purpose (some BBC designs used this at LF, but not HF). HF resonances do make an audible difference, as does driver phase alignment at MF and HF (but you have to work out what part of the driver you are phase-aligning to!), but it's all marginal and difficult to measure objectively.

Talking of which, do you have suitable test equipment? Sir will be needing a decent condenser mic, with a known (meaured) frequency response curve, and a test acoustic in which to use it, ideally anechoic (within band), and something to calibrate against. Sir will also be needing a spectrum analyser that sir can trust (just because it can doesn't mean the A2Ds are accurate and so on...)

In the industry, 24/96 isn't used because it delivers better quality as such, it's used (a) because it's a sales gimmic, and (b) amongst the cognoiscenti because you can put such a signal through a lot of DSP with less degradation (essentially rounding errors) before you finally "downgrade" it to 16/44.1.

And I'll take a lot of persuading that anything you do will compensate for the horrible noise that is most MP3...

Have fun by all means, but don't waste your time pursuing a mirage.

E.

*see what I did there?
 
Eric The Viking":drvznbmd said:
[On going off topic, better to be hung for a sheep, etc...]

The cynic in me suggests that you won't have any audio sources good enough to make any of the above worth the candle. It's one of the differences between the pro- and amateur approaches: is it "good enough" to serve its purpose? If so, use it!

...

In the industry, 24/96 isn't used because it delivers better quality as such, it's used (a) because it's a sales gimmic, and (b) amongst the cognoiscenti because you can put such a signal through a lot of DSP with less degradation (essentially rounding errors) before you finally "downgrade" it to 16/44.1.

And I'll take a lot of persuading that anything you do will compensate for the horrible noise that is most MP3...

Definitely agreed on 24/96 vs 16/44.1, but as for sources and MP3; I'm firmly with the AES on this one (i.e. the research papers that I've seen over the years).

Very low bitrate MP3s do have audible artefacts, but IRC at 256kbps they're almost indistinguishable from an original source, and a 320kbps any properly conducted double blind test I've ever seen has shown that people are just guessing when it comes to the MP3 vs the original.

Also, even a pretty cheap CD player these days is capable of outputting a ruler flat signal from 20Hz to 20kHz, with distorion levels so low that you'd be crazy to worry about it (vs. the numerous, huge, issues with loudspeakers and their placement in rooms).

Sean Olive (http://seanolive.blogspot.co.uk/) has written some excellent papers on audio quality in general. I can particularly recommend AES 3854 "Hearing is Believing vs. Believing is Hearing Blind vs. Sighted Listening Tests, and Other Interesting Things" as a superb slayer of snake oil.
 
sploo":1jscqr6p said:
Very low bitrate MP3s do have audible artefacts, but IRC at 256kbps they're almost indistinguishable from an original source, and a 320kbps any properly conducted double blind test I've ever seen has shown that people are just guessing when it comes to the MP3 vs the original.

320kbps is very close to the 186kB/s of uncompressed 16/44.1 (grossly approximating, obviously), so that makes perfect sense - the algorithm at that rate isn't doing anything detectably harmful.

My point was badly made: in the real world, by the time any commercial audio reaches home hifi, it's horribly mangled. If it's MP3, it's _usually_ quite not-wonderful (high bitrates excepted).

Also, even a pretty cheap CD player these days is capable of outputting a ruler flat signal from 20Hz to 20kHz, with distortion levels so low that you'd be crazy to worry about it (vs. the numerous, huge, issues with loudspeakers and their placement in rooms).

Sean Olive (http://seanolive.blogspot.co.uk/) has written some excellent papers on audio quality in general. I can particularly recommend AES 3854 "Hearing is Believing vs. Believing is Hearing Blind vs. Sighted Listening Tests, and Other Interesting Things" as a superb slayer of snake oil.

Absolutely agree on CD capabilities. Will chase the AES paper whenigetamo - sounds good.

E.
 
Eric The Viking":3eut1ska said:
320kbps is very close to the 186kB/s of uncompressed 16/44.1 (grossly approximating, obviously), so that makes perfect sense - the algorithm at that rate isn't doing anything detectably harmful.
CD audio is 1411.2kbps (~176KB/s). That's over a 4:1 ratio with 320kbps: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bit_rate#CD-DA

IRC The tests on 256kbps were only audible in very rare cases: tracks with very differing material on the stereo channels, and then not (humanly) detectable at a particularly high "hit rate".


Eric The Viking":3eut1ska said:
My point was badly made: in the real world, by the time any commercial audio reaches home hifi, it's horribly mangled.
Sadly that's often true. Loudness wars and all that cr*p.


Eric The Viking":3eut1ska said:
Absolutely agree on CD capabilities. Will chase the AES paper whenigetamo - sounds good.
Unfortunately you have to pay for the paper, but a (hopefully useful) rough summary is:

  • Experienced and inexperienced listeners tend to give the same preferences (he's published later work that's backed that up) - the main difference is that experienced listeners tend to be more reliable (i.e. you can hone in on a "good" solution faster, with fewer experienced listeners, than it'd take using Joe Public)
  • With sighted tests, all listeners are biased by visual appearance; "better" looking speakers tend to rate higher, and my preferred "Brand X" tends to be rated better than the competition (regardless of whether you're an experienced listener or not)
  • With unsighted tests, preferences are much more subtle (and not coloured by brand)
  • In an unsighted test, when placing a very good speaker in a bad location (right next to a wall - resulting in comb filtering, which is known to cause severe audible effects) it will be rated as worse than a merely good speaker in a good location
  • In sighted tests, the effects of speaker placement were drowned out by visual appearance

That last point is the killer for me, and shows the fallacy of sighted listening - even something known to be bad can be apparently good when we convince ourselves of the case. Sadly, even knowing that you're subject to sighted bias doesn't prevent you from being affected. I believe there's a term used for that but unfortunately I can't remember the name of it at the moment so couldn't dig out any supporting evidence.
 
Eric The Viking":18yxqjb4 said:
Talking of which, do you have suitable test equipment? Sir will be needing a decent condenser mic, with a known (meaured) frequency response curve, and a test acoustic in which to use it, ideally anechoic (within band), and something to calibrate against. Sir will also be needing a spectrum analyser that sir can trust (just because it can doesn't mean the A2Ds are accurate and so on...)

I have a StageLine ECM-40 'Electret measuring microphone' and I have a variety of ways to do phantom power and get the bits into a PC. It comes with a printed magnitude curve and its flat enough between 40Hz and 4kHz not to worry. I use REW to visualise things. It has a bit of a rise at the top end so I might transcribe it - but more likely I'll just add some attenuation by ear. I'm not going to let software build a FIR 'correction'. I'm 51 and don't pretend I can hear much over 10k or so anyway. If I was buying again I'd get the miniDSP mic.

Anechoic isn't realistic, but I'm aware of the issues - which does remind me to order an update to Dickason's book.

If anything, inspiration comes from http://www.troelsgravesen.dk/ and the amazingly honest http://www.grimmaudio.com/site/assets/files/1088/speakers.pdf.

I find the Grimm article fascinating - little magic and good engineering after LDSG and Linkwitz Labs - and the effects that they use are all relatively straightforward with a PC crossover (or the Hypex or miniDSP plate amps, or indeed the GroundSound control unit).
 
jmansion":2smtfzag said:
I'm 51 and don't pretend I can hear much over 10k or so anyway.
That's refreshing(ly honest/realistic) to read. You wouldn't believe how often I've had audio forum conversations on the lines of:

"My tweeters can reproduce up to 30kHz!"
"How old are you and are you male/female?"
"Middle-aged male"
"Congrats; your dog will love them"


jmansion":2smtfzag said:
If anything, inspiration comes from http://www.troelsgravesen.dk/ and the amazingly honest http://www.grimmaudio.com/site/assets/files/1088/speakers.pdf.

I find the Grimm article fascinating - little magic and good engineering after LDSG and Linkwitz Labs - and the effects that they use are all relatively straightforward with a PC crossover (or the Hypex or miniDSP plate amps, or indeed the GroundSound control unit).
I love Troels' site; followed it for years, but must admit I've never built one of his designs. The Illuminator 5 would be fun though :wink:
 
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