When did the world go mad for Festool?

[porker]

Interesting conversation. From my perspective I am also in a similar position to a previous poster in that I am a serial house renovator but its not my main job so I am strictly amateur. In my main job I have to regularly develop business cases and tend to apply the same thinking with my home projects too. In the current house renovation, I wanted to put false wood paneling in. Checked out various sources and found a place on the net that supplied what I wanted which is all MDF based. Their site was so good I could figure out how to make it myself but I needed very accurate cuts. I have no room for a tablesaw having lost my large workshop in my last move. I needed good dust extraction as I would be working indoors. Even when I have used a (little) tablesaw I was never happy or safe about cutting 8 x 4 sheets accurately. I looked long and hard before buying a TS55 and a couple of rails but it didn't seem to be that much more expensive than the other makes of tracksaw around and I did err on the side of rave reviews (so there marketing must work). The key point I would make is that it does exactly the job I wanted it to do and met my criteria and the overall job saved me over £1000 by not buying it pre-made including the cost of the tool. So for me, it has already paid for itself and that's on one job.

Nobody I know would even know what Festool is so its not to wave around. I use my tools. I do think they are very good at Marketing and some of there stuff is a crazy price for what it is, but I think they are quite clever about it. Will I buy more Festool stuff. Probably not as I have other tools that do a good job and that's my criteria. It's the cost / benefit that matters to me.

On a slight side note, I know quite a few pro's who won't spend money on things where on a cost basis it's a false economy if you are charging for your time. One of my relatives fits bathrooms for a living and he buys the most crappy tools imaginable and doesn't look after them. He goes on a job, the tool breaks (angle grinders and cheap drills are his favourite) and then he has to spend 2 hours going to get another on time he can't charge for. It's not just once, he does it all the time.

 

[petermillard]

I've just watched the Bosch video. For £725....that's a very very nice piece of kit!! That new design of rear arm is superb.

until u need to pick it up

looks nice bit of kit but is very heavy

Steve

Yep, 30-odd Kg, half as much again as a Kapex; not an issue if you don't need to cart it about, big, big issue if you do. Portability and dust extraction were the main buying points for me. I'd never used lasers before, thought they were a bit of a gimmick - I don't now, wouldn't be without them!

Pete

 

[Random Orbital Bob]

Yes I've not used lasers either....used to lining the tooth up against either a scribe or pencil line but I like the idea of seeing both sides of the kerf and I note it's adjustable so you can keep it true. Very useful for trenching cuts in half laps et al I would think where the boundary on either side of the kerf is in play if you want a tight fit.

It's a shame I cant really justify a new chopsaw as I have no pending projects because having had a severe update in what's current I can see how far behind my faithful sliding dewalt is now.

Also with that flat back design I would reconfigure my workshop and take the chopsaw out of the centre. Currently it's facing the garage doors so I can open them to purge the worst of the dust as the DX is terrible. With the superior DX and the flat back I could happily place it out the way against a wall.

 

[Woodmonkey]

Yes I've not used lasers either....used to lining the tooth up against either a scribe or pencil line but I like the idea of seeing both sides of the kerf and I note it's adjustable so you can keep it true. Very useful for trenching cuts in half laps et al I would think where the boundary on either side of the kerf is in play if you want a tight fit.

It's a shame I cant really justify a new chopsaw as I have no pending projects because having had a severe update in what's current I can see how far behind my faithful sliding dewalt is now.

Also with that flat back design I would reconfigure my workshop and take the chopsaw out of the centre. Currently it's facing the garage doors so I can open them to purge the worst of the dust as the DX is terrible. With the superior DX and the flat back I could happily place it out the way against a wall.

:lol: sounds like you have convinced yourself Bob!

 

[Ed Bray]

I have a Kapex, I don't actually use the lasers, I have both a zero clearance plate and a zero clearance fence and just line my cut mark up with that.

 

[n0legs]

Do the instructions say the swapping of the mains power lead can be done whilst it is still live?

Yes
https://youtu.be/sD2QxrwuvJk?t=1m

That's not strictly correct.
I downloaded the instructions for the domino.

Page 4:-
► Do not abuse the cord. Never use the cord for
carrying, pulling, or unplugging the power tool. Keep
cord away from heat, oil, sharp edges or moving
parts.
► Disconnect the plug from the power source before
making any adjustments, changing accessories, or
storing the tool.

It's like an old Swan kettle, switch it off at the socket, as the plug and socket on the appliance is not to be used to make or break a live circuit.. Therefore this feature does not speed up it's use. The instructions state disconnection from the mains first.
So their innovative design ( copied I think from Black and Decker ) just allows one lead to fit other tools. Is that such a clever idea?

 

[pike]

That's not strictly correct.
I downloaded the instructions for the domino.

Page 4:-
► Do not abuse the cord. Never use the cord for
carrying, pulling, or unplugging the power tool. Keep
cord away from heat, oil, sharp edges or moving
parts.
► Disconnect the plug from the power source before
making any adjustments, changing accessories, or
storing the tool.

It's like an old Swan kettle, switch it off at the socket, as the plug and socket on the appliance is not to be used to make or break a live circuit.. Therefore this feature does not speed up it's use. The instructions state disconnection from the mains first.
So their innovative design ( copied I think from Black and Decker ) just allows one lead to fit other tools. Is that such a clever idea?

Where in the quoted text does it say you can't use the plug to make or break the circuit? I don't particularly care if the plug it system is innovative, clever or copied, it's just a handy thing to have. Simply having less cables lying around is nice. No big deal. Maybe you're not supposed to, I'm not sure. I certainly do though

 

[No skills]

As an aside core77.com is running a series of articles on festool as a company, check out article number five if you are a festool user - I'll have one of those salt and pepper chucks

 

[Random Orbital Bob]

I think one of the points the professionals were making was that festool, perhaps more so than the other manufacturers have really integrated the tools in their range so that they all work together to form the concept of the System, right down to the stacking systainers, plug compatibility, DX compatibility etc. They've gone deeper than all the others and that may well include re-using ideas pinched that pre-existed. I mean it's a marketing persons wet dream isn't it? Once you buy into the family, you're sucked in by the next thing that "sisters up" with what you've already got. The other manufacturers seem to have just nailed shared batteries and chargers whereas festool have integrated everything. They're just so completely and utterly German I've worked with many German's over the years and they are very "systemic" in their thinking. Festool are a classic extension of that mindset. Very rational, very connected. Truly exceptional marketing. I can see why the pro's can justify their cost now but for an amateur there is no economic business case, it's pure self indulgence which I have no problem with at all. It's pleasurable when you use a nice tool, I find that with the Domino and that's all part of the enjoyment of wood working. I still have a problem justifying their price in my domestic setting but this thread has helped me appreciate the broader picture of how they're valued.

 

[No skills]

If the use of something like the domino by an amateur lets them achieve something that they could only pay an expensive "professional" to do for them then there's a certain amount of justification in that IMO.

 

[Random Orbital Bob]

well we're back to "de-skilling" there again aren't we. I wasn't thinking so much of the domino replacing a body, more (in my case certainly) it replaced the hollow mortiser. So the innovation is making older technology redundant. But you're right though, it will make some bodies redundant as well, just as Desktop publishing did to typography and many other technology revolutions have in most industries in the last 150 years.

 

[Distinterior]

The Plug-It system that Festool utilizes on most of it's power tools is very useful. I was using 5 of their tools today on a project in my workshop. All the tools required dust extraction and I only needed 1 power lead that was plugged into the autostart power point on the CT dust extractor. At no point during their use did I have to turn the power supply off to change tools.

Swapping the Plug-It lead from one tool to another is not the same as unplugging a 3 pin 13amp plug from a wall socket whilst the tool is under load. When you disconnect the lead from one tool and then connect it to another tool, unless you have your finger on the run switch of that tool, then no current is flowing....!!!!!

If you read the quote from the Domino instructions again, it only states the need to disconnect the plug whilst making any adjustments, changing the cutter, resetting depth settings etc. No mention of turning off the supply to the Plug-It lead before connection or disconnection to the tool itself.

 

[RogerS]

Matey down the street may have the latest Festool gear but his finish isn't any better than mine and he's no faster to job completion. The only difference is he gets less work than me because his prices reflect his willy waving when it comes to tools.

Typical of the garbage that make these threads pointless :roll: :roll:

Got it in one.

 

[Doug B]

The bottom line appears to be that like many top end brands Festool devides opinion, clearly the fact that the brand has spurred its own forum & it's growing success has prompted this type of thread show they are doing things right.

Marketing alone however well done will not sustain a brand if their products fall short of the performance expected from them, the fact that the brand keeps growing is testement to the quality & innovation of their products & service.

Successful long term businesses aren't built up by idiots who are drawn in by the latest expensive gimmicks or by brand loyalty, yet in my experience many of my business contemperies are moving/have moved over to Festool, clearly they see the advantages of the brand.

There will always be voices on both sides of arguments that involve expensive brands v less expensive brands, I've witnessed the same with Apple & Microsoft. Both my feet were well planted for many years in the anti- Apple brand seeing them as well over priced, that was until my children started using their products & I realised what I was missing, or more over the amount of time I had wasted with very slow running Windows products that seemed to be forever waiting for updates & that within 6 months of buying the latest computer was running as slow as the previous one.
In Apple I saw a product that I could pick up, use immediately & put down in the knowledge that the next time I wanted to use it it would be ready immediately at the push of a button, I didn't like the price initially but I'd buy another of their products at the drop of a hat so impressed am I with them now.

That said I know full well their are those who dislike Apple with a passion, that's their right, it won't change my view though as having used both I know which I prefer, it doesn't make me a willy waver, snob or Apple-fool just some who appreciates what that brand can do for me.

 

[Random Orbital Bob]

Every brand that carries a high price tag in a mass market causes this kind of debate because there is always a good deal of confusion about matching the value to the price. It's perfectly normal. People want to know why why why it's that bit more expensive and if so what's in the gap analysis with its competition.

Personally I find them informative, useful, they absolutely help direct my own decision making because if there is sufficient credible discussion you can genuinely make a decent decision at the end with a modicum of confidence that your solution will work. You also may give yourself permission to not need to agonise about the price differential if the feature, function, business case has been demonstrated to justify it.

I'm sure language like dick waving doesn't exactly help in sensible debate!! Sometimes I guess it takes a bit of passion to flush out the real reasons behind peoples choices.

Nevertheless, those reasons are interesting because they're borne out of real experience and, at least for me, help me to not get it wrong when I make a purchase.

So whilst they can get a bit rude and a bit heated (I'm just as guilty) I find them really useful. The end point is always the same...is the premium being asked justifiable based on the quality of the product or on economic grounds or is something else in play and if so what. Hilti, Mafell, Apple as you say can all bear the same treatment and so should they given their (some might say) audacious pricing. My view has always been that if a manufacturer is pushing out prices 50% plus higher than the competition then I sure want to know the reason why.

And specifically in this thread wrt Festool I think a very good account has been given for that premium. (Not least by you in point of fact)

 

[jackss565]

I am a firm Festool fan, and we have dozens of their machines in the workshop. However i wouldn't buy one if i was a hobbiest. The whole idea behind Festool is that they are professional grade machines designed and priced for professional users. As others in the thread have said, the time saving measures add up pretty quickly in commercial use and this justifies the cost of the tools. There are other brands whose tools are just as expensive or even more so, but the value added makes them worth it for companies to use them. We just bought a Mafell Z5 portable bandsaw, which are around £4000. Time taken for the machine to pay for itself was 3 days. It would never be worth it for a hobbyist, but for us it was a no brainer. I think the same case can be made for lots of Festool tools, even ignoring the fact that they can produce a better level of finish in some cases.

If a home user wants and can afford a Festool tool then thats up to them, but this is not the market they are primarily aimed at.

 

[woodpig]

According to this Festool need to charge high prices for "pre and post sales service" for professional users and only have "a very small market share". At least that's the argument here for price fixing in Oz:

https://www.accc.gov.au/media-release/a ... ower-tools

 

[Phil Pascoe]

I think if I were the manufacturer of a premium product I would think twice about admitting the need for a high level of post sales service. :?

 

[rdesign]

lidl-cheap-track-saw-interesting-for-89-99-euro-t89889.html

thought u lot might be interested in looking at this in debate over cheap copies of the festool ts55

Regards Richard

 

[Doug B]

I think if I were the manufacturer of a premium product I would think twice about admitting the need for a high level of post sales service. :?

If you are selling into industry you need good after sales as the end user of the product isn't on the whole the buyer of that product so there is a higher risk of damage & misuse & hence service requirements as apposed to a sole trader buying & using his/her own tools.

In all the time I've been using Festool I've only had one minor problem with one of their tools, in less the 48 hours it was picked up, repaired & returned all under warranty & at Festool's expense.
Compare that to the 5 weeks I was without my Makita 18v cordless drill which I had to pay postage on twice because the first time I sent it them they returned it supposedly mended & they hadn't in fact done anything to the drill.

I fully accept that part of the Festool's tool price goes to providing the level of service I received but like my AA breakdown cover its a price I'm willing to pay should a need for that service arrive, others won't pay the premium, it doesn't make it right or wrong it's just giving the consumer a choice