shed9
establiSHED member
woodpig":2abcchlz said:
Why do you or others care or derive amusement from it? That's the bit that gets me...
When did the world go mad for Festool?
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Why do you or others care or derive amusement from it? That's the bit that gets me...
ghettoblaster
Established Member
Sorry but this thread has got my goat!
To all the people saying "My Bosch, Dewalt, Makita etc. is amazing, I have used it for 20 years no problem!"
I think we need to be comparing the tools currently available from these manufacturers to festool's current offerings. If we did I bet you my left ball that there would be countless faults and breakdowns compared to festool.
Makita Dewalt and the likes have gone to the dogs, poor quality and repairs and customer service are all appalling except for Bosch.
For example, when makita brought out the plunge saw ripoff I bought one thinking I was well smart saving £150, or whatever it was back then, and getting the 'same' tool. Fact was the makita version was S**T!! Would burn mdf on the non waste side, blade was not aligned to the rail properly, would struggle to cut anything at a mitre let alone at the right angle! All round the quality was very poor. You have probably guessed it got sold about 3 months later and a festool was bought to replace it, that was 7 or 8 years ago. I have had zero problems with the festool. Its that old saying again, buy cheap buy twice!!
Oh and to anybody that thinks they are just as fast and accurate with a circular saw as with a plunge rail saw, not necessarily festool, Is totally deluded!! Wake up and try one!
To all the people saying "My Bosch, Dewalt, Makita etc. is amazing, I have used it for 20 years no problem!"
I think we need to be comparing the tools currently available from these manufacturers to festool's current offerings. If we did I bet you my left ball that there would be countless faults and breakdowns compared to festool.
Makita Dewalt and the likes have gone to the dogs, poor quality and repairs and customer service are all appalling except for Bosch.
For example, when makita brought out the plunge saw ripoff I bought one thinking I was well smart saving £150, or whatever it was back then, and getting the 'same' tool. Fact was the makita version was S**T!! Would burn mdf on the non waste side, blade was not aligned to the rail properly, would struggle to cut anything at a mitre let alone at the right angle! All round the quality was very poor. You have probably guessed it got sold about 3 months later and a festool was bought to replace it, that was 7 or 8 years ago. I have had zero problems with the festool. Its that old saying again, buy cheap buy twice!!
Oh and to anybody that thinks they are just as fast and accurate with a circular saw as with a plunge rail saw, not necessarily festool, Is totally deluded!! Wake up and try one!
phil.p":zk2d7w32 said:German quality? In recent years VAG have had one of the worse reliability records.Stick to Japanese, Korean or Ford.
Oh yes, :wink: recent car reliability reports I've seen show German cars to be among the least reliable you can buy. Japanese makes were at the top of the list for reliability. I found one particular statistic very surprising, best brand for engine failures was Honda with a rate of 1 in 344, worst was Audi with a failure rate of 1 in 27! :shock:
MMUK
Established Member
woodpig":4eh9fh8d said:phil.p":4eh9fh8d said:German quality? In recent years VAG have had one of the worse reliability records.
Oh yes, :wink: recent car reliability reports I've seen show German cars to be among the least reliable you can buy. Japanese makes were at the top of the list for reliability. I found one particular statistic very surprising, best brand for engine failures was Honda with a rate of 1 in 344, worst was Audi with a failure rate of 1 in 27! :shock:
Been like that for a few years. Skoda is the best performing VAG group brand in reliability terms. Seems the Japs have the knack with all the unnecessary electronic gubbins that modern cars are fitted with.
Phil Pascoe
Established Member
Three people I know with long motor trade experience told me to buy (second hand) anything in decent condition so long as it wasn't French. Their electrics are so dire and expensive to repair.
wcndave
Established Member
phil.p":2fsxhjyr said:
I've got a Peugeot. Agree completely.
There is a lot of "buy the best tool you can afford" type advice, then everyone moans about why people like Festool. I have the domino, the tracksaw, and a router. The domino was definitely a luxury item given it's price, but it get's a surprising level of use. The Router is miles ahead of anything else I've used, Trend, Makita, Dewalt, old Elu, it's hard to explain, it's just so many little things done really well.
I have a roofer friend, who's firm uses Mafell, and he tried my tracksaw, and was like "god this is great". The plumbers, plasterers and electricians who worked on my house all used Festool, and there seemed to be all round agreement that they are just the best stuff right now.
They were slightly surprised I had Festool, as it's acknowledged to be expensive, but, sometimes you get what you pay for.
DiscoStu
Established Member
I was at our CEO's house recently, he was having a barn conversion done. Loads of oak work and a lot of bespoke units in MDF. I got talking to the guys doing it and he described Festool as the emperors new clothes. He seemed to think they were overpriced compared to Dewalt and Makita.
I've used both my domino and tracksaw today and both are brilliant. At the end of the day I'm happy with my purchases and that is all that matters to me.
I've used both my domino and tracksaw today and both are brilliant. At the end of the day I'm happy with my purchases and that is all that matters to me.
Say this for festool, it sure can make boring woodworking videos. Nothing as uninteresting as seeing someone taking out his expensive speciality tooling and going at it. By now I'm at the point where there's a 50/50 chance I watch something else if I see another domino brought in. This is why I like videos by people like Wandel and Heisz, never seen them bring out any expensive tooling and their videos are more interesting for it.
MMUK
Established Member
phil.p":jd7hq8yj said:
I've had French cars and vans for 15 years and never had electrical problems. My Alfas on the other hand.... Not that that would stop me buying another Alfa.
MMUK
Established Member
woodpig":28xeu074 said:
Strange that seeing as Peugeot and Citroen are basically the same cars underneath. Says a lot about the workforce in each factory...
Wizard9999
Established Member
Had resisted reading this thread but couldn't resist this morning, fathers' day indulgence I guess. Ignoring the many diversions, as somebody very new to woodworking it has mostly been very interesting.
I am generally very sceptical about marketing full stop, I like to think I am immune to it though this is no doubt a self delusion as I am sure the very best marketing gets you without you realising it. Based on past experience in a completely unrelated area of work I do know that R&D and innovation cost a lot of money and if you want a company to deliver products which are "game changers" you have to allow them to recover that cost, or they will just stop doing it. It seems to me that Festool do innovate and therefore deserve the opportunity to recover their investment through the pricing that patent protection provides - I am sure when the various patents on the domino expire there will be a lot of other manufacturers immediately ready to launch copies at lower price points.
When I started reading this thread I was a Festool sceptic, other than the domino which I know with absolute certainty I will buy fairly soon as it will save me space and will I hope to some extent make up for my lack of both experience and skill. However, I have read some very good arguments for many of the other tools in the Festool range. As many have said, it comes down to working out where you will get the benefit. As an example, I have the Makita plunge saw and have been very positive about it, but yesterday I cut MDF with it for the first time and yes it did cause burning (must admit had assumed it was down to me). But I am only going to be using this saw for breaking down boards before cutting pieces to the correct size on my tablesaw now I have the power connected to my workshop, so I very much doubt I will be looking to change to the Festool unless I find another issue down the line that will impact what I am doing. But I completely understand somebody in a different position with different needs could make the opposite decision. It doesn't necessarily mean either of us is right or wrong.
Having had a really good look at one at a tool show last year the one product I really do struggle with still is the MFT3. Maybe I don't really understand what it is for, but whilst there may be some innovation the one I saw was frankly not convincing. It didn't seem like you got very much for the money and the thing was not even stable, and whilst I believe somebody told me in the past that you can pay extra for additional stiffening add-on parts surely if this is correct it is just an admission that it is not right in its basic form? But I would be happy to hear more from MFT3 users who can fill in the blanks for me as to where the benefits are that make the price justifiable.
Anyway, thanks to all those Festool owners who have shared their experience with their tools, I have (as always on UKW) learned a lot.
Terry.
PS The comment on page 2 that suggested that anyone who didn't own Festool was jealous because they couldn't afford it gets my vote for most stupid comment on this thread, trust me JJ1 that is not true.
I am generally very sceptical about marketing full stop, I like to think I am immune to it though this is no doubt a self delusion as I am sure the very best marketing gets you without you realising it. Based on past experience in a completely unrelated area of work I do know that R&D and innovation cost a lot of money and if you want a company to deliver products which are "game changers" you have to allow them to recover that cost, or they will just stop doing it. It seems to me that Festool do innovate and therefore deserve the opportunity to recover their investment through the pricing that patent protection provides - I am sure when the various patents on the domino expire there will be a lot of other manufacturers immediately ready to launch copies at lower price points.
When I started reading this thread I was a Festool sceptic, other than the domino which I know with absolute certainty I will buy fairly soon as it will save me space and will I hope to some extent make up for my lack of both experience and skill. However, I have read some very good arguments for many of the other tools in the Festool range. As many have said, it comes down to working out where you will get the benefit. As an example, I have the Makita plunge saw and have been very positive about it, but yesterday I cut MDF with it for the first time and yes it did cause burning (must admit had assumed it was down to me). But I am only going to be using this saw for breaking down boards before cutting pieces to the correct size on my tablesaw now I have the power connected to my workshop, so I very much doubt I will be looking to change to the Festool unless I find another issue down the line that will impact what I am doing. But I completely understand somebody in a different position with different needs could make the opposite decision. It doesn't necessarily mean either of us is right or wrong.
Having had a really good look at one at a tool show last year the one product I really do struggle with still is the MFT3. Maybe I don't really understand what it is for, but whilst there may be some innovation the one I saw was frankly not convincing. It didn't seem like you got very much for the money and the thing was not even stable, and whilst I believe somebody told me in the past that you can pay extra for additional stiffening add-on parts surely if this is correct it is just an admission that it is not right in its basic form? But I would be happy to hear more from MFT3 users who can fill in the blanks for me as to where the benefits are that make the price justifiable.
Anyway, thanks to all those Festool owners who have shared their experience with their tools, I have (as always on UKW) learned a lot.
Terry.
PS The comment on page 2 that suggested that anyone who didn't own Festool was jealous because they couldn't afford it gets my vote for most stupid comment on this thread, trust me JJ1 that is not true.
Random Orbital Bob
Established Member
Good points well made Terry.
It had occurred to me that when the discussion veered in the chopsaw direction....those examples of modern chopsaws with very flat backs that allow close up to wall installations made me think of your situation. Not necessarily the Kapex because that Bosch looked fairly sexy too I have to say. Fair comments were made about it's weight but in a non mobile setting that's no biggy. I found that update on chopsaws interesting as I've had my sliding Dewalt for 10 years and simply don't even look at new chopsaws...why would I? I now realise how far the innovations have come in that time and I confess, it surprised me, pleasantly.
On the issue of your burnt MDF, your Makita has had quite a brutal start to its life, mullering all that OSB which lest we forget is riddled with very hard resin and had come from piles in contact with the ground and grit et al. The blade is almost certainly quite blunt and that alone may account for your burnt mdf. I've got a diamond needle file that we can tickle the carbide tips with, failing that a new blade will sort it.
And I'm with you on the MFT3. Of all the Festool kit it seems to stand out like a sore thumb as being wholly unlike the rest of the range in the quality department. I do understand it's a mobile solution to an industrial requirement and it delivers accuracy and flexibility on site. But again, it seems to me to be the one tool in their range that really stretches the credibility of the value vs price discussion and in many respects undermines their wider message about quality as a brand. In short, it lets the side down!
It had occurred to me that when the discussion veered in the chopsaw direction....those examples of modern chopsaws with very flat backs that allow close up to wall installations made me think of your situation. Not necessarily the Kapex because that Bosch looked fairly sexy too I have to say. Fair comments were made about it's weight but in a non mobile setting that's no biggy. I found that update on chopsaws interesting as I've had my sliding Dewalt for 10 years and simply don't even look at new chopsaws...why would I? I now realise how far the innovations have come in that time and I confess, it surprised me, pleasantly.
On the issue of your burnt MDF, your Makita has had quite a brutal start to its life, mullering all that OSB which lest we forget is riddled with very hard resin and had come from piles in contact with the ground and grit et al. The blade is almost certainly quite blunt and that alone may account for your burnt mdf. I've got a diamond needle file that we can tickle the carbide tips with, failing that a new blade will sort it.
And I'm with you on the MFT3. Of all the Festool kit it seems to stand out like a sore thumb as being wholly unlike the rest of the range in the quality department. I do understand it's a mobile solution to an industrial requirement and it delivers accuracy and flexibility on site. But again, it seems to me to be the one tool in their range that really stretches the credibility of the value vs price discussion and in many respects undermines their wider message about quality as a brand. In short, it lets the side down!
Ed Bray
Established Member
With reference to the MFT3 I don't have one and do think its overpriced for what it is, but, I do have an MFT top that I use and find it useful. The one thing that is clear, is that the majority of MFT3 owners do love the thing and would not get rid of it. The proof must be in the using.
Random Orbital Bob
Established Member
I agree Ed, it really has it's fan base and I think it goes to the point about the professionals again. They value it because it's a solution that works on site in an industrial setting which is very mobile. I think it suffersmore a reputation problem than anything else. The perception is its over priced based on its superficial appearance. Those that have actually used it in anger always rate it highly for the reasons stated above.
It has to be said (yet again) that this is where the price argument comes in to play. No one doubts the solution works, the complaint always surfaces when the £500 price tag gets wheeled out. Quite a number of enterprising folks (including one on this forum) have been CNC'ing MDF equivalents for a lot less and selling them because there is clearly profitable headroom to be had underneath Festool's premium price if the users are creative enough to do a work around for the clamping bits.
Didn't you buy one Terry?
It has to be said (yet again) that this is where the price argument comes in to play. No one doubts the solution works, the complaint always surfaces when the £500 price tag gets wheeled out. Quite a number of enterprising folks (including one on this forum) have been CNC'ing MDF equivalents for a lot less and selling them because there is clearly profitable headroom to be had underneath Festool's premium price if the users are creative enough to do a work around for the clamping bits.
Didn't you buy one Terry?
chippy1970
Established Member
Here's my version of the mft that i just built. It's just 18 mm MR MDF and I used a router , jig and a 20mm cutter from wealdens to do the holes. It has a downstand all round to stiffen it up and sits over two dewalt stands. I've wanted to build one for years and finally got round to it. I used it on a kitchen fit the other week and it was so handy. I've since used it for making a few MDF doors for a job and using bench dogs with it makes it so quick to cut square MDF doors. Also with the dewalt stands its rock solid unlike all the mft's I've ever seen.
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Wizard9999
Established Member
Rob et al
Yes, I did indeed buy an MFT style top from another UKW member, but sadly unlike Chippy mine has yet to be combined with anything else to create something useful. I agree with what people have said, I think the concept of the MFT3 combined with bench / Parf dogs is a very good idea. I have seen very good examples on the Internet of both fully bespoke versions such as Chippy's and customised MFT3s such as the YouTube video by Timothy Wilmots. So it is not the concept I have an issue with but rather the build quality and value for money when compared to examples like the one Chippy posted above.
Maybe the difference is that most people on here will be more than capable of designing and building something that will meet their particular needs equally as well as an MFT3 for a lot less. I suspect the chances of a home made plunge saw being better for anyone's needs than a TS55 are a lot less, and whilst the videos of home made domino equivalents demonstrate that their are some really clever, talented people out their I'm still not convinced that they trump the domino in anything other than cost.
Terry
Yes, I did indeed buy an MFT style top from another UKW member, but sadly unlike Chippy mine has yet to be combined with anything else to create something useful. I agree with what people have said, I think the concept of the MFT3 combined with bench / Parf dogs is a very good idea. I have seen very good examples on the Internet of both fully bespoke versions such as Chippy's and customised MFT3s such as the YouTube video by Timothy Wilmots. So it is not the concept I have an issue with but rather the build quality and value for money when compared to examples like the one Chippy posted above.
Maybe the difference is that most people on here will be more than capable of designing and building something that will meet their particular needs equally as well as an MFT3 for a lot less. I suspect the chances of a home made plunge saw being better for anyone's needs than a TS55 are a lot less, and whilst the videos of home made domino equivalents demonstrate that their are some really clever, talented people out their I'm still not convinced that they trump the domino in anything other than cost.
Terry
chippy1970
Established Member
Mine cost me £155 for the stands from d&m tools, can be bought cheaper elsewhere. £28 for a sheet of 18mm MR MDF AND £20 for the 20MM cutter to do the holes.
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How much time?
just for curiosity if we actually paid our selves for the home made solutions would it still be cheaper. I am planning on building an mftc version for pleasure and usability so not saying anything against this but a value on time must be considered when putting up a monetary price of the replica.
5/6 hours?
just for curiosity if we actually paid our selves for the home made solutions would it still be cheaper. I am planning on building an mftc version for pleasure and usability so not saying anything against this but a value on time must be considered when putting up a monetary price of the replica.
5/6 hours?
yorkshirepudding
Established Member
Regarding comments on the MFT, I don't recall anyone mentioning the guide rail and fence with which it comes. I find this feature most useful and if bought separately would certainly bump up the cost of a home made table.
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