What Smoothing Plane

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Chems

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Im in need of a good plane to finish off bits of wood that have tear out from P/T and Im looking at the Axminster No4 Smoothing plane as a cheap option, Im not really good enough to be looking at spending anymore than that for my first plane. Is it a good buy, will it do what it says on the tin or should I look at a No5?
 
Probably better to get a Lee Vally veritas low angle jack, a Lie Nielsen no 5 1/2 jack plane, an old Stanley or Record no 5 or 5 1/2 in combination with information from the net on how to tune it up properly and a visit to a willing nerby forum member to verify is the plane has been properly tuned up, or buy a tuned up second hand plane from on of the forum members or someone like Ray Iles at the old tool shop.

The price range for buying a plane is not related to how good you are. The price is related to the time spend and frustration to getting it in working order. (at last when comparing low price and medium price planes. Looks, ecstatics and the feel of the tool come in when comparing mid price ranged to the planes in the $1000 and more range.
 
Chems,

Don't know if it is available in UK but one smoothing plane to consider is the HNT Gordon smoother. It's a wooden plane with a massively thick blade so there is no likelihood of chatter which can occur with thinner blades. It has a steeper angle than most which means it can tackle much wilder grains and harder wood than most. Greatest attribute is that the blade can be reversed so that for finish work it becomes a very efficient scraper plane. So you get two planes for the price of one. I have no connexion with Terry Gordon except that after misgivings about buying a wooden plane, I now own three, a smoother, a jack plane and a try plane.

In case you think I am one eyed I should say I also own a Lie Neilsen black plane and a Lee valley jack plane as well as a range of now seldom used records and stanleys. Check out his web site


Jerry

War does not decide who is right. War only decides who is left
 
HNT Doesnt seem to be showing up on any searches for me in the UK.

tnimble, the ones you mentioned all look very nice but also extremely expensive. The Old Tool shop looks like a good bet. £30 for a number 5 Stanley which should be good right?
 
If you need to reduce planer induced tearout on a pine or suchlike, then you need a plane (almost any) with a very fine shaving aperture and a sharp blade. For most of the time the position of the cap iron doesn't matter.

The frog adjustment (ie the casting that supports the blade) on these cheap planes can be pretty crude, but if you can loosen the two fixing screws and turn the screw that lies under the adjustment knob, a cheap plane will get you by for a while.
 
It's always as well to consider saving up the extra for a good quality plane even if it seems a scary proposition; cheap tools are a false economy. For a metal bench plane I'd guess the Ray Iles option is probably the best you'll find for a smallish outlay.

The smoother represents the most precise, finickity, carefully tuned and honed bench plane in your armory. It's job is to take the finest possible shavings and leave a perfect finished surface on an imperfect and often cantankerous material. Price really isn't a gauge, but I wouldn't want to spend less than £79 on one. Expect a decent metal bodied smoother to cost twice that. It is possible to do up an old plane, but the tolerances needed to get a smoother performing are tight - it's something to consider when you've a bit of experience under your belt. Fortunately Sand Paper does a fair job in the mean time.

I reckon what you're looking for is a trying/jointer plane - a #7 or #8. The long length will true up your stuff after rough surfacing on the machines and leave a surface that's ready for final sanding or a quick pass with the smoother. Trying planes are quite fussy, but less so than smoothers - I use a second hand woody that I bought for a couple of quid and spent a couple of hours tops getting it into good fettle. As long as it's sound and everything fits tight wooden trying planes are relatively easy to sort out - though there's a knack to using them. Second hand Stanleys and Records cost a fair bit more, but as long as it's in fair shape they'll do at a push; that said you're not likely to get them performing so well on your own, Ray Iles will sell you a decent one with a reground sole. Premium planes - the cliftons, veritases (veritai?) and Lie-Nielsons are no doubt superb. I blew all my premium plane allowance on a block plane and a smoother.

Or you could go half way and use a #5 or #6 as a sort of bastard trying/smoother that does it all in one swoop. If your machines are good this is a sound approach. The bevel up planes from Veritas and Lie-Nielson are supposed to be excellent for this - they're well outside the prices you're looking at, but I'd urge you to get saving if you want a plane that'll be a good partner for power tools. Expect to have to do a lot of work on a second hand jack plane - they are originally intended for rough work and tend to be put together that way too. Again, Ray Iles will sell you one with a freshly ground sole which will save you the worst bit of the job.

Oh and you'll also need to sharpen the thing and you'll want to be able to hold your work still.
 
Well there is a lot to this that I didnt know about.

I did buy a very cheap stanley recently and to be honest its about as much use as rubbing butter on the wood.

Do you have any links to guides for "honing" up old planes?

Thanks for all the info so far!
 
Chems":o7iyj6ol said:
HNT Doesnt seem to be showing up on any searches for me in the UK.

tnimble, the ones you mentioned all look very nice but also extremely expensive. The Old Tool shop looks like a good bet. £30 for a number 5 Stanley which should be good right?

Oldtools... Good store/site.

I got a Stanley N0. 4 of 1930's vintage for just £18.00. (Because it was fitted with a modern blade.)

Add one Hock blade and chipbreaker, season with a bit of fettling and it's the best bench plane in my shop, bar none.

Regards
John
 
Chems":8nkxbwxs said:
Well there is a lot to this that I didnt know about.

I did buy a very cheap stanley recently and to be honest its about as much use as rubbing butter on the wood.

Do you have any links to guides for "honing" up old planes?

Thanks for all the info so far!

Honing is what you do to keep the cutting iron sharp, fettling is what you do to tune the plane into good performance. What plane did you get?

First thing you should do is decide what you want your plane to do; hand tools are specialists. Most of the online guides I've read assume you want to go for smoother like performance and push the boat out, but it's not always a good idea. If you've got and an 8th to lose on a bit of stuff it's going to take you a long long time to get anywhere if your plane is taking 0.001" shavings. There are subtle differences to how you shape the cutting iron, how you set the plane up and the tolerances you work to that will determine whether the plane is good for fine shavings or fast work.

The bevel up planes mentioned above are the exceptions to the rule; you can alter their characteristics on the fly so they're adept at a range of planing jobs.

Anyhoo, next thing to do is to get it sharp. Hopefully someone will have a linky with pictures, but I'll do my best without. Sharp is what happens when the bevel on the cutting iron meets the back of the cutting iron as keenly as possible.

To this end you are going to need a range of flat sharpening stones progressing from coarse to as fine as possible or some other abrasive/flat thing going on - you can ues wet and dry paper on a backing of thick float glass (google scary sharp) or suspend abrasive particles on a lapping plate.

The first and most ghastly step is flattening the back of the cutting iron - you can't get the bevel to meet the back keenly if it's not as true as possible. I like to use the coarse side of a cheap old fine/coarse oil stone (it's relatively quick and there's no worries about wearing it out) - but I make sure it's flat first. I bought an expensive over size diamond stone which is great for this, but some coarse wet and dry stuck on thick plate glass or some other reference surface (cast iron table of a piece of shop machinary could work at a push) will get the job done.

Mark the surface of the stone all over with pencil. Then, using even pressure, work the face of the stone against the wet & dry until all the pencil marks have abraded away. Use oil (wd-40/3in1/parafin/whatever) to lubricate. You may need to re-pencil mark the stone if the marks are washed, rather than abraded off. At the end of the process you should have a stone which is evenly abraded all over and very flat. Do the other side and soak it all in oil.

What usually happens is that we flatten the area on the back of the cutting iron between where the channel for the cap iron screw ends and the tip of the bevel - that tends to give us no more than a couple of inches of flat. If you aim to flatten too narrow and area you'll have a hard time keeping even pressure when you work it on the stone and the whole thing will go horrible wrong. Too large an area and you'll be there forever - literally.

Place the appropriate chunk of the back of the iron to the coarse side of the stone (with the stone and iron at 90 degrees to each other) then work the iron up and down the stone trying to keep even pressure all over the top of the iron with your fingers - which probably means getting them very close to the sharp bit - be careful.

Check the back periodically - you'll see high spots emerge and get abraded. You're done when you have an evenly abraded patch that meets the entire width of the cutting edge. Scratches or pitting near the cutting edge will result in a weak edge, which is bad; you want to work them away. Progress can be very slow - stick with it.

It's fairly easy to go wrong and dub the corners of the cutting iron a bit. This isn't a good thing - it means you'll never get truly sharp right to the corners. This comes from uneven work - you'll get better with practice. You'll file rounded corners on the iron before you're finished and some of the dub will be lost when the edge is shaped to a camber, also the far corners of the iron are less critical unless you're after a top performance smoothing plane - so don't lose sleep over it.

Flip the stone over and do the whole thing again with the fine side of the stone. There are two faces to an edge (the bevel and the back) - you'll only get as sharp as the least refined face. If you've got the back properly flat with the coarse side this will go much faster. Again, check periodically and watch the shiny grow until it meets the entire width of the cutting edge.

Go get a beer - you'll have earned it!

(somebody else want to do the next be please - I am pooped)
 
The minute you start working wood you have a job for life Chems, sharpening!
If all the info adds up to a daunting scenario remember, we all thought that at first, but most of us survived!
If you've already bought a Stanley plane, I'll assume it's a number 4, you might just as will stick with it, any new Stanley is likely to be just the same as the one you've already got!
To change the subject, why has your P/T torn your wood?
Three reasons come to mind,
1 Bloody awful grain, not much you can do about that with a P/T.
2 The knives need sharpening.
3 Are you feeding the wood across the cutters in the wrong direction.
Till you start on what we all like to produce, which is heirloom type jobs, a decent P/T should produce a finish that needs no further planing.
How often do you see Norm with a Number 4 in his hands?

Roy.
 
*brain fuzz*

Well the Stanley plane I bought was a block plane from Focus and its terrible. Worthless.

I haven't purchased a P/T yet but I intend to in the next few weeks, its interesting you say that the cut should be good enough, as I have had a few bits of wood P/T by the saw mill and there is a lot of tear out I had to remove with my palm sander which took a long time. Watching T-Chisel I realized he never sands and only ever used Planes which got me thinking I really should get a decent one if Im going to start doing some serious work.

I have a sharpening stone, and have been trying to sharpen my chisels up but Im not very good at it, but reading this I guess its a similar process.

Thanks for all the info I will read it again to try and get a better understanding.
 
Woodwork is a skilled craft mate, and like all skills the learning curve is initially steep and difficult, but the sense of achievement considerable.
I was fortunate in that I was taught at the bench by skilled craftsmen, not many have that start, persevere, it will come, and this forum is amongst the best that education can supply.

Roy.
 
Electric planers are prone to dings in the blades which leave tracks in your work - it's always as good to be able to clean them up - though like Digit says, you should be able to improve the product that comes out the machine by doing stuff like sending it through with the grain in the right direction.

Block planes are a different cup of tea - they're for trimming; but you still want to get the thing sharp if you're going to use it. You're probably right that the tool is pretty poor though; not the best introduction to hand tools.

The best block planes are [well made and] adjustable all over - some times you need to trim a little off, sometimes a bit more - so you can set the depth of cut, the size of the opening (you typically want the mouth to be just just big enough to pass shavings through, but no more - nasty things like tear out happen if the wood isn't supported just before the blade.) and so on. Cheaper models just get adjustable blade depth - they tend to get referred to as apron planes as they're lighter and small enough to live in the front pocket of your pinny (you have got a pinny haven't you?) and get pulled out whenever you need to tweak a thing.

Who the hell is T-Chisel? ICE MOFO T - AT THE WOOD WORKING BENCH ******!!!

I'm not sure where you're at with the wood work thing, but I started out reading stuff on the internet and looking at books and decided that the best thing to do was to buy power tools and machines. After all, how you get good square stock is to send it through a planer, thicknesser and table saw. Gotta have a router and a circular saw and a jig saw and drills, probably a mortising machine, a sliding compound whatsit, sanding machines, band saw, electric hammer and yadda yadda. And then you've got to get some dust extraction or die from some foul throat and lung afliction, gotta get some hearing protection, eye protection you need space to be able to operate this stuff safely and because my budget is tight I don't have funds for the good quality machines and the budget stuff is really limited in capacity and to be honest (like your block plane) not very good. And there was me trying to work out of half (if that) of a single garage.

Which is why you find me in the hand tool section. At some fairly early point it became apparent that if you showed a lump of wood to a machine a chair didn't automagically pop out, it wasn't very safe and it wasn't much fun. The power tools went.

With hand tools half a garage is a really good size workshop, I'm not limited by the capacity of my machines, I can tackle projects from outbuildings to little boxes. I'm always in control - I can work quickly when I'm doing familiar things and slow right down when I'm trying something new. There's less danger of death, less frustration, less noise, less dust you can do it on the cheap (you can also spend lots - Damn you Chris Schwarz) and it's good exercise - getting stock to size is a workout, practicing detail work will hone your hand-eye coordination. Also hand tools have zen.
 
Well said MrJay, I've just come in from the workshop, Millionaire's on shortly,
Ear defenders, vacuum cleaner, big router. All so I can get this damn stable door out of the way and get back to some PROPER woodwork with the shop door open, the garden visible and able to hear the birds sing.
Much more pleasant.

Roy.
 
An interesting read, Im not strapped for space, Ive got a really nice big space. Ive got a fairly cheap 1/4 router but to be honest it does a really good job now its hooked into my home made table but I do want to purchase a Triton 2000W jobby second hand. But heres my current shop:

Table Saw, Fairly good if you take the time to get it set up, fine for ripping and cross cutting roughly.

Router + table, as above good for the whole cost of less than £50.

SIP 1/2 Mortising Machine, this is where the love for machines comes in, I bought this machine really cheap new and its bloody fantastic I cant believe how good it is, do your Mortise on this and the tenon on the router and perfect everytime.

Palm Sander, good bit of kit for light sanding.

Nice set of Chisels, but blunt and I cant seem to sharpen them very well with the stone provided.

Hand Held JigSaw which is quite good for roughing out templates to use on the router.

The DO WANT list:

Axminster P/T AWEPT (Non cast iron table) + Good extraction system free.

Decent Smoothing Plane

Lots of clamps I own none.

Bench Top Band Saw

Triton 1/2 Router


And to be honest that would do me Ive got a plan for a new work bench in the design section and Id be away. Ive got the top 3 on my shopping list from Axminster totaling £466



As for T Chisel, I found him off this site, he is a very skilled worker but supremely annoying to listen to he says "You know what I mean" like every 3 seconds and his catch phrase is whos better than me, but I learnt quite a bit from just watching him and he has a fantastic work ethic.

He made this, and watching him work the wood and the techniques he uses (I watched all the episodes) really teaches you that power tools are ok but hand tools is where you finish the job power tools started.

http://www.bobvila.com/RoughCutShow/
 
#4.5 with a 15 degree back bevel of the wood tears out a lot. #4 is much lighter, and i find heavier planes are much better on difficult timbers
 
Chems":2c6ujupg said:
I got lots of stuff :D

In that case I really do reckon a Veritas/Lie Nielson bevel up bench plane would be the way to go. They're fettle free and unfussy to use, they'll cope with just about any job you throw at them superbly and you won't need to keep and feed a whole stable of planes to cover basic jobs. At least, that's what I'd be doing if I wanted a partner for power tools. Start saving.
 
I never said that!

Ive got a budget of about £500 I want to put towards wood this month and £466 of that is allocated, Id hoped to spend the extra £34 on some wood. I probably will get a good plane in the future but to spend £100 plus at the moment is a bit to much!
 
Chems":2oksz0lc said:
Nice set of Chisels, but blunt and I cant seem to sharpen them very well with the stone provided.
Is that stone the only sharpening kit you have? Any plane you get will need to be resharpened, so a good stone(s) will be required.
I have a wet shone grinder that the LOML bought for me, but a course oil stone or diamond stone will do the job, followed up by a fine stone. I use ceramic stones, the ultra fine one produces a mirror finish, giving a very sharp edge.
I also use a honing guide, for years I used an Eclipse one but have now moved over to the Lee Valley No2. Using a guide gives repeatable results which helps when starting on the sharpening learning curve.
 
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