What smoother?

[Mr Ed]

Recent discussions about the role of the smoothing plane and a latent desire for an even more handtool biased approach to things have left me with a plan to fill the smoothing plane shaped gap in my plane collection. Couple this with my annual bonus coming in very nicely on Tuesday of this week and there is a plan starting to emerge.

So what smoothing plane to go for? A few thoughts;

1. Funds are not in Sauer and Steiner territory, more in the £500 region
2. I have always liked the Norris A5 and would love to own / try one. Konrads version of this felt great in my hands and the infill appeals to me. I am wary of old Norrises that are knackered and cannot be bothered to trawl car booters.
3. I wonder about the Ray Iles A5 reproduction, but don't know anyone who has one.
4. Part of me would like a more forward thinking plane design - people say the LV BUS is excellent, but is it different enough from the LV LAJ I already have?

Anyone have any thoughts or reccomendations?

Cheers, Ed.

 

[wizer]

I can only comment on the LV BUS which I was recently given. I love it! I intended to use it solely for shooting. But I find myself reaching for it al the time. It's so nice to use and takes lovely thin shavings with little effort. I have been using it to take off planer/TS marks.

I'm sure the more expensive drool worth planes are better, but I can't imagine it being by much. If you have the money and want to splash out then go for it, but saving money and going for the LV will not provide you with a poor alternative.

 

[ike]

Albeit traditional, a Clifton is very competitively priced at the moment.

 

[Mr Ed]

I thought it was the LA Smooth plane you had Wizer?

Ed

 

[Ironballs]

I'll second Wizer on the LV BUS, it's a fantastic plane that feels great in the hand and just works

 

[wizer]

My apologies, you are right Ed, it's the LA Smoother that I have.

 

[Karl]

Hi Ed

Personally i've never really got on with the larger bevel up planes.

I currently have two "smoothers" - a HNT Gordon and a Philly toted smoother. The Philly is definitely my plane of choice - the toted handle gives a great grip for a small (and light) plane. The HNT is a good plane, but it took me ages to learn how to handle it - many bruised knuckles on the vice.

For larger work I tend to use the Clifton 7 as an Ultra Super Smoother. ie a big smoother! :lol:

Cheers

Karl

 

[Paul Chapman]

Hi Ed,

A plane that I bought rather on impulse but which has turned out to be one of my favourites, is a Clifton #3. I've used it a lot lately, often in situations where my Veritas low angle block plane doesn't quite have the heft and my #4 and #4 1/2 are rather too large.

In designing the plane, a lot of thought was put into the shape and angle of the handle so that, despite its small size, it's very comfortable to hold. And, like all Cliftons, it's quite heavy so excellent on very hard and difficult woods and on end grain. And the Bedrock frog makes adjusting the mouth a doddle.

Thoroughly recommended

Cheers :wink:

Paul

 

[Paul Chapman]

Another thought, Ed - do you have a scraper plane? I have the Veritas one

I've also been using this a lot lately and it's a real cracker and I'm wondering if it should perhaps be included in the category of "super smoother" :-k

I've been using it recently to clean up a table top made up from 8 oak boards and the finish it gives is superb. The design of the plane is excellent - you can push it, pull it or use it sideways, because it's so stable and the design of the handle and knob are just right. The ability to bow and angle the thin blade gives very precise control over the cut. Much better, in my view, than using a back bevel in a conventional plane to avoid tear-out.

Cheers :wink:

Paul

 

[Karl]

The design of the plane is excellent - you can push it, pull it or use it sideways, because it's so stable and the design of the handle and knob are just right.

Hi Paul

When you say "pull it", do you mean just reverse the plane (ie with the knob towards you)? And as for sideways??????

I've got a LN 112, similair in size, but without the thin blade (I don't know whether it'd fit my plane. Need to look into that).

Cheers

Karl

 

[Mr Ed]

Paul

I have a LN 212 small scraper that I like, but is limited due to its size. I have been looking at the LV scraper for a while.

One option (being greedy here) I am considering is both the BUS and the scraper as this fits within my self appointed spending limit.

Whilst browsing came across this thread which I thought was interesting;

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=85673

Cheers, Ed

 

[Paul Chapman]

Hi Karl,

Yes, by "pull it" I mean just reverse the plane. By sideways I mean left to right I've been finishing off a large (and hence rather awkward) table top which is a bit of a stretch and I've found that the plane can be used in several different directions quite comfortably - I'll post some pictures tomorrow if I get time to show what I mean.

The thin blade would be no good in your LN. The Veritas has a screw (like the #80 has) so that you can bow the blade as well as tilt it, but the LN doesn't have that feature.

Cheers :wink:

Paul

 

[woodbloke]

Ed - interesting thread. I was privileged (along with Pete Newton) to be the first to use Waka's S&S family of planes that he recently took delivery of from Konrad. When I was testing them on some of Waka's Indonesian Rosewood, there was no perceptible difference between the performance of the S&S smoother/jointer/try plane when compared to a well set up LV BU jack, in other words, both types of plane with a 2 thou mouth and really sharp blades.
If you want to spend your pennies on just about the best smoother (IMO) out there at the moment that will enable you to use it with both arms and legs (as opposed to just one arm and a leg) then it has to be the LV BU smoother, which at the end of the day is a shortened version of the BU jack and if you want to push the boat out a bit further, get the try plane as well...I have all three
Just to put it into perspective, I also use a Norris A1 panel plane and a Record calvert-Stevens smoother (with a LN A2 blade):

but the three LV planes are the ones I reach for automatically now
A full account of the days trip to see Waka's planes is on the Blog if you're interested and yes, I do admit I have a slight problem
One other small thing...at West Dean the LN guy reached for a LN BU plane to tame the 'wood from ****', not a BD LN plane (of which he had plenty :wink on his bench. 'Nuff said - Rob

 

[Mr Ed]

Rob

What in your experience are the notable differences between the BUS and LAJ? Anything other than the length, or is there more to it than that? I know the BUS ships with a different angle blade, but as discussed before the blade can become any angle in a short order of time.

I'm sure you're right about the performance comparison you did, but what struck me about using a S&S plane at Westonbirt was the feel. It seemed so solid, now this may not be true of all infills- I don't know having never really used them. There is also something strangely alluring about the infill in my view, but that may just be a romantic notion based on appearance!

Cheers, Ed.

 

[woodbloke]

Rob

What in your experience are the notable differences between the BUS and LAJ? Anything other than the length, or is there more to it than that? I know the BUS ships with a different angle blade, but as discussed before the blade can become any angle in a short order of time.

I'm sure you're right about the performance comparison you did, but what struck me about using a S&S plane at Westonbirt was the feel. It seemed so solid, now this may not be true of all infills- I don't know having never really used them. There is also something strangely alluring about the infill in my view, but that may just be a romantic notion based on appearance!

Cheers, Ed.

Ed - as far as I can tell, it's just the length. I have the smoother set with very fine 2 thou mouth and 1 thou shaving (or thereabouts) and the jack is set with a slightly bigger mouth and deeper cut, so it gets used for more general work at the bench...and shooting board (or used to, I have a LN No9 now ) both planes with a 50deg EP. Agree about the feel...totally differen 'twixt the two sorts of planes, but at the end of the day you need to look objectively at the shavings being produced and the surface left behind. The LA BU smoother is very strange when you first use it, but now I don't like going back to a more conventional BD plane. I also agree about the appearance of the infills...they do look the part, the BU smoother looks distinctly 'squashed' in comparison, but it's the performance that counts - Rob

 

[Mr Ed]

Does that difference in length make the 2 perceptibly different to use. I know you have yours set up differently so they perform different functions, but I supppose I'm asking if they are sufficiently different to mean there is a benefit to having both, other than adding to ones plane collection .

Cheers, Ed

 

[woodbloke]

Does that difference in length make the 2 perceptibly different to use. I know you have yours set up differently so they perform different functions, but I supppose I'm asking if they are sufficiently different to mean there is a benefit to having both, other than adding to ones plane collection .

Cheers, Ed

I think there is a benefit to having both simply because they are set up differently, which means that you don't have to alter the settings to change function. I've just been doing some picture frames in maple for someone at work and I used the LA jack to clean up the joints and splines and then I the BU smoother to finish. I was trying to get a finish straight from the plane...I only needed a light wipe over with a bit of very worn 320g paper on the edges. You could conceivably just use the jack on it's own as a smoother but then you'd probably need something else for general duties at the bench - Rob

 

[bugbear]

Another thought, Ed - do you have a scraper plane? .... Much better, in my view, than using a back bevel in a conventional plane to avoid tear-out.

Do you include high EP via BU, and high bedding angle high EP designs in that? I know Steve Knight did some comparison w.r.t scraping, and felt (he's biased!) that while scraping makes tearout almost impossible, it doesn't create such a good surface.

I do find back bevels have a higher maintainance overhead than I'm comfortable with.

BugBear

 

[Paul Chapman]

I know Steve Knight did some comparison w.r.t scraping, and felt (he's biased!) that while scraping makes tearout almost impossible, it doesn't create such a good surface.

With the oak I'm working on at the moment, the scraper plane is leaving a 'polished' finish, so I'm very happy with it.

With all these things, I think it's quite hard to generalise. Lots of writers do tests on scrap pieces of wood and then publish the results as "proof" that a certain way is better. However, when it comes to making a piece of furniture, you soon find out what really works :wink:

Cheers :wink:

Paul

 

[Derek Cohen (Perth Oz)]

Recent discussions about the role of the smoothing plane and a latent desire for an even more handtool biased approach to things have left me with a plan to fill the smoothing plane shaped gap in my plane collection.

Hi Ed

There is a lot of support and praise for the Veritas BUS, and it is well deserved. I do consider that this plane is amazing value in the company of high performance smoothers. The best smoother I have is a Marcou, and the BUS runs it very close indeed.

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ToolReviews/The Veritas Lee Valley Bevel Up Smoother.html

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ToolReviews/The Marcou S15 BU Smoother.html

But before you go buying anything, what you need to answer is ..

1. The size of your work, and
2. The type of wood you want it for.

While the BUS is not a large smoother (compared with a LA Jack), it has a large feel. If you want to use a smoother on smaller work, such as boxes, then go for the Veritas LAS..

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ToolReviews/The Veritas Low Angle Smoothing Plane.html

Or even a bevel down plane, such as the Brese. I am constructing a kit with a 60 degree bed ..

http://www.breseplane.com/Small_Smoothers.html

The advantage of a BU plane over a BD plane lies in the ease with which it achieves a high cutting angle, and the ease of pushing it with this high cutting angle.

However, if you are not going to work hardwoods with interlinked grains, then you do not need a smoother that is orientated to such woods. And just as an aside, a scraper plane is only effective on hardwood. It is not an option on softwood.

I predominantly use BU planes at the angle extremes - very high (60-65 for smoothing) and very low cutting angles (37-40 for shooting). Inbetween angles (45-50) go to BD planes, which do the donkey work. The advantage of the BD plane over the BU plane is in sharpening if you are a freehander (like myself). The high cutting angles on the BU planes are easiest to create with a honing guide, but the BD plane is easy to hone freehand after a hollow grind.

I have a bunch of BD planes, including infills, woodies and others (including a very nice LN Anniversary #4 1/2), but you might take a look at the Blum smoother. It has a superb balance and excellent performance ..

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ToolReviews/Blumplanereview-SmootherandForePlanes.html

Regards from Perth

Derek