devonwoody
Established Member
Thanks for your advice and information, (I have had them stored in the shed some time now around 6 years at least I think.) The wife thinks a warm holiday would do the trick as well.
What is the going cost for boiler replacement these days
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beech1948
Established Member
Apparently the Government is going to outlaw Gas boilers from 2025. That is going to create either a massive amount of work for plumbers or cause many to hang onto their existing boiler.
The issue for me is that the Gov approach lacks a real world view. My boiler produces hot water in 30 secs at a good enough rate to fill a bath in 5 minutes. I doubt the UK Gov will have the experience to meet these simple standards.
The issue for me is that the Gov approach lacks a real world view. My boiler produces hot water in 30 secs at a good enough rate to fill a bath in 5 minutes. I doubt the UK Gov will have the experience to meet these simple standards.
HappyHacker
Established Member
The question for me is what are they going to replace gas with?
Air sourced heat pumps, expensive, require space outside, current models do not produce water at 80 degrees so larger radiators needed, often noisy, can be expensive to run if the system is not correctly designed/configured.
Ground source heat pumps, many of the same problems as above plus need a lot of garden unless a borehole (expensive) is used.
Solar (wet or electric) - fine while the sun shines but in the UK low output during the period of maximum demand.
Hydrogen - Not much currently being produced.
All the above require electricity which is not cheap and may be in short supply with all the electric cars that will need charging. We have still not managed to build any replacements for our old nuclear power stations which are all at the ends of their life and are generally producing over 10% of our power.
I accept things need to change but do have concerns about the logistics when the technologies to replace gas at a reasonable price are not yet available and five years is not far in the future. If the building regs had been changed a few years ago to improve the insulation and airtightness of new houses well beyond the current levels that would have been a good start. But we have millions of houses built too much lower standards of insulation which are going to need updating and what will be the cutoff for no replacement gas boilers in the existing housing stock.
I hope my pessimism is misplaced, but there are politicians involved so unlikely.
Air sourced heat pumps, expensive, require space outside, current models do not produce water at 80 degrees so larger radiators needed, often noisy, can be expensive to run if the system is not correctly designed/configured.
Ground source heat pumps, many of the same problems as above plus need a lot of garden unless a borehole (expensive) is used.
Solar (wet or electric) - fine while the sun shines but in the UK low output during the period of maximum demand.
Hydrogen - Not much currently being produced.
All the above require electricity which is not cheap and may be in short supply with all the electric cars that will need charging. We have still not managed to build any replacements for our old nuclear power stations which are all at the ends of their life and are generally producing over 10% of our power.
I accept things need to change but do have concerns about the logistics when the technologies to replace gas at a reasonable price are not yet available and five years is not far in the future. If the building regs had been changed a few years ago to improve the insulation and airtightness of new houses well beyond the current levels that would have been a good start. But we have millions of houses built too much lower standards of insulation which are going to need updating and what will be the cutoff for no replacement gas boilers in the existing housing stock.
I hope my pessimism is misplaced, but there are politicians involved so unlikely.
The gas replacement target is a bit of a PR stunt. There is no credible replacement for the approx 26 million gas boilers currently in service in the UK.
Will there be in the future? Absolutely and I am fully supportive of replacing them with better alternatives, but as it stands at the moment it's a fantasy.
Will there be in the future? Absolutely and I am fully supportive of replacing them with better alternatives, but as it stands at the moment it's a fantasy.
Underneath the headlines it’ll be far less drastic. First move will be no gas in new builds, with plenty of insulation and built well it won’t be too hard, district heating ,ground source, air source, electric would all cope add a small wood burner in difficult cases as a last resort.
Then we’ll get the usual finagling of numbers and there’ll most likely be more bio gas injection into the grid, thus reducing fossil fuel use further.
But as said above there are huge numbers of existing housing for which replacement of gas boilers is currently unlikely. Be much better to try and get all existing stock upto an epc C rating, that’d reduce gas use considerably. The legislation making landlords meet minimum standards is handy in that its allowing an industry to get established and then mature whilst seeing what does and doesn’t work in real life.
Then we’ll get the usual finagling of numbers and there’ll most likely be more bio gas injection into the grid, thus reducing fossil fuel use further.
But as said above there are huge numbers of existing housing for which replacement of gas boilers is currently unlikely. Be much better to try and get all existing stock upto an epc C rating, that’d reduce gas use considerably. The legislation making landlords meet minimum standards is handy in that its allowing an industry to get established and then mature whilst seeing what does and doesn’t work in real life.
beech1948
Established Member
Happyhacker,
My question as well. What is a replacement for gas.??
I have noticed that a consortium of Rolls Royce/Smiths and a few others has proposed and developed the idea of small localised nuclear reactors such that 1 or 2 would fuel a small city eg Bristol.
Unlikely to be available for 2025 though.
My question as well. What is a replacement for gas.??
I have noticed that a consortium of Rolls Royce/Smiths and a few others has proposed and developed the idea of small localised nuclear reactors such that 1 or 2 would fuel a small city eg Bristol.
Unlikely to be available for 2025 though.
Terry - Somerset
Established Member
As is often the case, the way to stimulate new ideas and technological development is regulation. Were there a viable economic alternative already exists, no regulation would be required.
Examples - emissions regulation for cars, insulation standards for new builds, energy ratings etc.
I suspect initially the ban on gas will relate to new installations only. It may include replacements - but more likely this will be added at a later date. The passing of time will improve alternatives, and higher volumes will reduce unit costs. Tax may be used as a 'weapon' - 0% Vat on electricity, 20% on gas??
As gas boilers typically last 15-20 years (or more occassionally there will still be homes heated by gas in 20 years time.
Examples - emissions regulation for cars, insulation standards for new builds, energy ratings etc.
I suspect initially the ban on gas will relate to new installations only. It may include replacements - but more likely this will be added at a later date. The passing of time will improve alternatives, and higher volumes will reduce unit costs. Tax may be used as a 'weapon' - 0% Vat on electricity, 20% on gas??
As gas boilers typically last 15-20 years (or more occassionally there will still be homes heated by gas in 20 years time.
jimmy_s
Established Member
I think you will find that the gas supply will become a mix of natural gas and hydrogen. Thats what I've been told in any event by one of the manufacturers. Air source heat pumps are getting better COP's - such as the new Vaillant heat pump that was released a couple of weeks ago but you cant just slap heat pumps in every property, particularly in towns and cities as the national grid will struggle to cope.
Look for hydrogen ready boilers appearing
Look for hydrogen ready boilers appearing
MikeG.
Established Member
jimmy_s":f9sznl77 said:
......air conditioners with good PR. How we have been sucked in by the greenwash on these is beyond me.
MikeG.":3rvv3885 said:
Not sure what you guys see over there typically - the cheap slide in type or the splits. The splits are in another world from a typical A/C and are probably cheaper year-round than oil over there.
I've got one in a room extension and nat. gas is *really* cheap here since we're sitting in an area where it's fracked - there's not really that much difference here in cost between the two until temperatures get lower than you'd typically see over there.
The slide is will work with coil assistance down to about -10C. The splits will work to -25C. you have to be at about zero before they start doing much with the coil (as in, efficiency only gets crappy below about zero).
No experience with the slide ins other than realizing that for where I live, they wouldn't suit.
don't know what power rates are there, either. Ours are high for the eastern seaboard here, at about what would be a tenth of a pound per KW/hr in converted currency.
The real sham with the splits over here is that the units cost about $2k for a good japanese brand and the HVAC houses want to charge $5500 installed (four hour install at the most for a single head unit). I used my contractor to buy one at cost through plumbing supply and paid his HVAC subcontractor $500 to install it - I should've done it myself after seeing how little there was to it). the slide ins are about $1000, but garish looking and would have used the price difference in power by now (and not run some days here as they'd shut off due to low temps).
oil is popular on eastern seaboard where geology doesn't allow for gas lines - but geothermal is getting cheap enough to pay off fairly quickly and replace. Air quality here is going up (different dynamic as the country isn't just a narrow strip with particulates quickly floating out to sea).
a 22 seer (15eer) unit with heat running down to -13F is hardly just an air conditioner, though.
DBT85
Established Member
HappyHacker":1857b6i7 said:
Note to self, do not touch any radiators in HappyHackers house.
Terry - Somerset
Established Member
I know aircon is really a sort of air source heat pump, but the superficial PR is quite persuasive - to the point where they may seem like a viable alternative to gas central heating + the benefit of blowing cold air on the occasional warm day.
I would need to do more research on the way they work at more extreme temperatures and the impact on efficiency - eg: can they provide heat when the external temperature is -10C. But if I needed both boiler, pipework, radiators for a replacement or new build it would get a very close look!
But compared to standard gas CH the total installation costs may be close, operating flexibility is much better than most standard gas CH, intrusive radiators not needed, and pipework is smaller flexible and easy to install.
I would need to do more research on the way they work at more extreme temperatures and the impact on efficiency - eg: can they provide heat when the external temperature is -10C. But if I needed both boiler, pipework, radiators for a replacement or new build it would get a very close look!
But compared to standard gas CH the total installation costs may be close, operating flexibility is much better than most standard gas CH, intrusive radiators not needed, and pipework is smaller flexible and easy to install.
Heat pumps are a great alternative for a lot of the UK as long as the grid can handle the extra load.
They don't work well at extreme low temperatures but how often does that occur? A space heater to bump up the temps on the rare coldest days would be fine for most, especially south of the border.
They don't work well at extreme low temperatures but how often does that occur? A space heater to bump up the temps on the rare coldest days would be fine for most, especially south of the border.
HappyHacker
Established Member
DBT85":19bupck6 said:
I am very old fashioned and have usually worked on 80 C in and 60C out. Modern thinking appears to be to use a lower temp in which requires larger rads to get the same output but is claimed to give a more even temp across a room and an increase in efficiency. I believe the recommendations for vulnerable people have also increased the use of lower temps as with bath mixers. Unfortunately I am not in a position to go around changing all my rads.
When my children were young they learnt not to touch the radiators and never got burnt.
jimmy_s
Established Member
Traditionally 82/71 is what we have used in UK as it relates back to something in farenheit.
The SCOP of the newer air source heat pumps are a lot better than they used to be. In order to get the best from them the whole system needs to be designed to operate at the lowest practical flow temp.
The SCOP of the newer air source heat pumps are a lot better than they used to be. In order to get the best from them the whole system needs to be designed to operate at the lowest practical flow temp.
MikeG.
Established Member
jimmy_s":2hpbatgi said:
Claimed figures and actual in-use figures are very much like claimed MPG figures for cars. Real life COP figures of 2 are rare. When you realise that electricity is typically generated with an efficiency in the low 30% range, and with losses in the distribution the energy efficiency of the electrickery which actually arrives in your house is typically in the 25% to 30% range. It doesn't take a second on the back of an envelope to work out that in energy terms you would be way better off burning the oil or gas directly in your house in a modern efficient condensing boiler (efficiency, depending on how it is calculated, of 80%+........with claimed 95% + being worth another pinch of salt) than you would going the circuitous and inefficient route of burning it in a power station, converting that heat to steam to generate electricity to send miles down the wires where it is converted back into heat.
Of course, if all our power came from renewables, and there was capacity in the distribution system, then heating by electricity would be fine, despite its enormous inefficiencies. It doesn't, so it isn't.
DBT85
Established Member
Yes, but which costs less to heat the house?
DBT85
Established Member
I believe that for condensing boilers you also need a return of around 55c or lower. Generally effeciency goes up the lower you run it all.HappyHacker":2aiklkok said:
My old house we splashed the extra for the weather controls and larger radiators so most of the time they were only warm to the touch but the house wasn't cold. When it was cold outside it ran the rads hotter, when it was warmer outside it ran them cooler.
From what I can gather they never really took off in the UK in park because a radiator feeling hot is how many people judge whether they are warm enough. No matter the actual temperature of the room.
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