What do you predict for EU and euro?

[Digit]

But surely it's for the Italians and the Greeks to be concerned about whether their appointments are democratic or not.

Greece was refused EU membership whilst ruled by the military junta for being 'undemocratic,' remember?

Crying foul and decrying the whole system because of this is not really rational IMHO.

I have no wish to destroy anything, let them do as they wish, and us as we wish, that's democracy.

Did you bother to read the Guardian article, see below?

The European Union has always had problems with democracy, a messy process that can interfere with the grand designs of people at the top who know best. When Ireland voted no to the Nice Treaty, it was told to come up with the right result in a second ballot. The European Central Bank wields immense power, but nobody knows how the unelected members of its governing council vote because no minutes of meetings are published. That said, the latest phase of Europe's sovereign debt crisis has exposed the quite flagrant contempt for voters, the people who are going to bear the full weight of the austerity programmes being cooked up by the political elites.

Here's how things work. The real decisions in Europe are now taken by the Frankfurt Group, an unelected cabal made of up eight people: Lagarde; Merkel; Sarkozy; Mario Draghi, the new president of the ECB; José Manuel Barroso, the president of the European Commission; Jean-Claude Juncker, chairman of the Eurogroup; Herman van Rompuy, the president of the European Council; and Olli Rehn, Europe's economic and monetary affairs commissioner.

The Guardian has been one of the more avid supporters of the EU, let us vote on our membership then like you with the last GE, I will accept the will of the majority, will you? That agin is democracy as I understand it.

To nail this down as per the thread title please give me the name of a single group of disparate cultures/nations etc that have been ruled by a centralised authority and survived. One example will suffice.
Given the chance all such have broken up, history is not on your side till human nature changes.

Roy.

 

[chipmunk]

Roy,
You choose your sources to reinforce your opinions, and I'll choose mine thanks ;-)

I don't agree with everything coming out of the EU but it's not me who's got the problem with democracy and putting up with decisions I didn't vote for.

Jon

 

[Digit]

I chose the Guardian to demonstrate, not support for my view any more than Milliband's comments, but to demonstrate that their opinions are changing.

but it's not me who's got the problem with democracy and putting up with decisions I didn't vote for.

I do not have a problem with democracy, only a lack of it, but as we are supposed to live in a democracy as long as I remain within the law I have the right to argue for and support the views that I hold.
But I note that you ignored my historical comments, as I said, history and people's nature are in general in disagreement with your views.
It was reported today that some members of the Greek parliament are refusing to, 'be dictated to by Brussels' and accept the deal put to them.
I am not alone, and these people were elected to their positions, so who has the greater authority, they or the EU?
Who should decide Greece's fate, Brussels or Athens?

Roy.

 

[chipmunk]

Roy,
I'm sorry if you feel I ignored your comments but that was simply because I didn't agree with the premise that the EU is an undemocratic centrallised authoritarian regime, whatever the Guardian/Torygraph/UKIP... A.N.Other call it. Therefore what followed was not worthy of response IMHO.

Of course the Greek people and parliament can choose not to take the conditional bailout from the other Euro-zone countries picking up the bill but then they surely have to suffer the consequences of being jettisoned from the Euro while minimizing the pain for everyone else in the Euro-zone don't they? Surely the idea of a "strings-attached" loan isn't new? Why is it unreasonable for those stumping up the money not to have some say in the way it gets spent? This doesn't constitute dicatorship in my view.

If there are undemocratic forces at work, then I'd argue it's the ratings agencies, the money markets and the bond traders who are responsible rather than the EU.

Jon

 

[Digit]

Surely the idea of a "strings-attached" loan isn't new? Why is it unreasonable for those stumping up the money not to have some say in the way it gets spent?

Never suggested that it was, 'he who pays the piper calls the tune.'

Guardian/Torygraph/

You missed the Daily Mail. :lol:

You suggested I quote only that which supports my view and that that is what you do, that being so I would be quoting the Express, Telegraph and Mail, as I stated, I quoted the Guardian simply because it appears to changing its view, as with the Labour party according to Ed.

I'm sorry if you feel I ignored your comments but that was simply because I didn't agree with the premise that the EU is an undemocratic centrallised authoritarian regime,

That wasn't my point, so I'll state it again. No foreign control of disparate peoples and cultures has survived.

Roy.

 

[chipmunk]

No foreign control of disparate peoples and cultures has survived.

But then neither has domestic control of indigenous peoples and cultures survived, has it? I think you need to define what constitutes survival for me to answer that one honestly ;-)

But I think your premise is still that the EU constitutes "foreign control" and this is incorrect IMHO.

I firmly believe that the EU is no different from Westminster with its majority of towny MPs making decisions about the countryside or it's Londoners dictating what happens in the North or South West of the country or in Scotland, Wales or NI. At any given level of goverment there will always be disparity - even within a town, city, borough or shire. There will also be "outsiders" making decisions about those and to those who they don't "know".

It's real life and it's democracy in action....

...but one thing's for sure if it doesn't survive - don't worry there'll be another one along in a minute ;-)
Jon

 

[Digit]

But I think your premise is still that the EU constitutes "foreign control" and this is incorrect IMHO

The current PM of Greece has represented his country as a Commissioner on 3? occasions. It would have been 4?, but Brussels refused to accept him!
Based on your earlier comments about Greeks determining how they are governed tell me what the Herll has it got to do with Brussels who represents Greece?
If the Greeks want Adolf Hitler to represent them then that is their business.
Under the USSR the Politburo was filled with reps from the various countries, reps selected by Russia then presented to the countries for them to vote on. Recognise the similarity?
There are, according to todays report, no elected reps in Italy's cabinet.

Roy.

 

[beech1948]

To repeat myself ( yes I know its vain ?) we are seeing the engagement of WW3. The first armaments have been fired. They are all financial.

Did I not read today that a German politician has told Cameron to start behaving like a German and to do what Germany has told him to do. That the UK will find that the Toban tax will be implemented wether we like it or not. Sod the fact that 35% of our GDP comes from finance and the impact would ruin our one globally successful business.

Merkel is doing exactly what the Germans have done before. Looking out only for Germany and not for the EU. The civil servant aparatchicks merely follow her will. Germany has in the past used the strength of her currency to export her inflation. The result was that the UK was forced out of monetary union and suffered a 5 year drop in output, massive job losses and debt.

Once again Germany wants to export her woes. Merkel will not pay for the German share of propping up the Euro and will not use German funds to support the ECB to buy back bonds from other countries to create a Euro market in bonds. She won't do this becasue her people will not allow it. She will tax other countries, she will insist that they pay more not less.

Cameron will give in because he's simply a man without vision or courage. He is a cosmetic politition, as are Clegg and Cable. Neither has any ability to see clearly and to lead forward to achieve what must be done for Britain. Where will the next Churcill or Thatcher come from. No matter what you think of Thatcher she had clarity, objectives she achieved, she was a leader par excellence, she had vision and did well for this country providing a platform that created 25 yrs of growth for us all.

I am a political agnostic. I do not vote Labour, Conservative or Liberal because they are all merely sound bites of a poor reality. The EU is merely a greedy playground for the corrupt.

Al

 

[Digit]

Conrad Adenauer is reputed to have stated his support for the EU on the basis that Germany needed political union as she could not be trusted on her own!
Horses mouth!

Roy.

 

[chipmunk]

Hi Roy,
You may well be right about Papademos but I think he's served in the ECB rather than the Commission hasn't he?

Hi Al,
I would have thought that any German politician is as entitled to voice their opinion as anyone else aren't they?
And isn't Merkel doing precisely what you want Cameron to do i.e. look after their respective county's interests?

The funny/tragic part is that it was only last week that Cameron insisted on being at the table in the talks over the bail-out within the Euro-zone because he said it affects the UK economy.

So you can't now be surprised that if the UK PM thinks it's that important to the UK economy that some in Europe aren't asking us to cough-up.

I think you may be spot-on with the "without vision" bit ;-)

The words "eat" and "cake" spring to mind ;-)
Jon

 

[beech1948]

Chipmunk,

You said >>>>Hi Al,
I would have thought that any German politician is as entitled to voice their opinion as anyone else aren't they?
And isn't Merkel doing precisely what you want Cameron to do i.e. look after their respective county's interests?<<<<

Yes and no. Yes to voicing an opinion. In this case the German involved merely said that Germany would fix the voting to ensure that the UK could not veto. Not an opinion but a statement of threat.

No Merket is using the EU to mask her lack of a plan other than to prevent Germany paying much. She has made a pre-emptive strike against the UK. Cameron has done nothing yet. What he should do is suggest a Toban tax on manufacturing output to counter the ones they want on our financial successes.

WW3 has begun and Germany are in the lead again. Seems Audenhaur was right not to trust them.

Al

 

[Digit]

The funny/tragic part is that it was only last week that Cameron insisted on being at the table in the talks over the bail-out within the Euro-zone because he said it affects the UK economy.

So you can't now be surprised that if the UK PM thinks it's that important to the UK economy that some in Europe aren't asking us to cough-up.

If America were, for example, to devalue the dollar that would affect the whole world, does that mean that the world should bail them out? Would that stop the world from offering advise? Even China has had its two pennorth on the subject. The Euro's problems are 'cos it was based on political desires, had the financial experts been listened to the weaker countries would not be in and the Euro would be stable, according the the experts.
Whether we were in the Euro or not the Euro would still be in trouble and the logical, ie, non-politcal solution would be to remove the PIGS.
I am not responsible for my neighbour's debts even if they affect me.

Roy.

 

[chipmunk]

Sorry Al but removing a veto isn't exactly earth shattering or doing anything undemocratic IMHO and it's still only words even if you feel it is a threat.

The Tobin tax isn't a bad idea either is it?

It seems to me that there are double standards here as usual. It's perfectly acceptable for ordinary people to pay Stamp Duty on big financial transactions in the UK but levying a fraction of a % on the poor chaps in the City and hell will freeze over. I'm sorry but I don't buy it.

Why should the rest of us (both here and in the rest of the EU) be taxed "until the pips squeak" and yet others, some of whom got us into this mess, get away with it?

Jon

 

[chipmunk]

Hi Roy,
They've had the begging bowl out to the Chinese already but they told them where to get off ;-)

I think that it's probably the IMF's job and we pay into that too ;-)
After all we've done alright out of them ourselves before ;-)
Jon

 

[Digit]

They've had the begging bowl out to the Chinese already but they told them where to get off ;-)

Exactly! They are affected by the Euro's problems, but not responsible for them. The EU is cause and effect.

Roy.

 

[beech1948]

chipmunk,

****Sorry Al but removing a veto isn't exactly earth shattering or doing anything undemocratic IMHO and it's still only words even if you feel it is a threat.***

It is both undemocratic and a threat.

****The Tobin tax isn't a bad idea either is it?****

Yes it is because we will pay through higher charges.

****It seems to me that there are double standards here as usual. It's perfectly acceptable for ordinary people to pay Stamp Duty on big financial transactions in the UK but levying a fraction of a % on the poor chaps in the City and hell will freeze over. I'm sorry but I don't buy it.****

Not what I said. Not my double standard. Your leaping to a statement which does not reflect what I said or meant. As it happens I agree that the UK financial institutions should have been taxed for £100 Billion per year for the last two years and that all banking bonuses should be taxed at 95%. The banks were the root cause of current distress and have got off scot free by both Labour and Coalition governments.

****Why should the rest of us (both here and in the rest of the EU) be taxed "until the pips squeak" and yet others, some of whom got us into this mess, get away with it?****

Again your statement not mine. I am very sympathetic.
For the UK the issue is that we do not protest en masse. The problem with Governments is that they are greedy and wasteful. THe UK Government has taken about 54% of GDP from us by direct and indirect tax for the past 10 yrs.

The solution is simple. We the people must force Government to stay within a set budget that can only be changed and increased by referendum. We must insist that the Petrol Escalator tax be reduced to set petrol at £1 per litre at a minimum. We must insist upon smaller government and less intrusion into our lives. Getting the Government drug fix off our backs would revitalise the UK. Time to have a clear statement about Gov will provide and not provide.

Education..yes to a nationally agreed standard or teachers wages go down
NHS yes to an agreed cost and standard but to hell with free IVF etc etc
Defense..yes
Welfare..to be scaled back. If you can't read then you are forced to gain some level of competance. The same with math. Don't work and not so disabled as to prevent you working then no benefits. Unemployed youth find a role helping a company to earn your benefits.

Companies who employ staff on low wages so that they are eligible for Government handouts should be penalised. That is tax credits of all types should be recovered from the companies involved. The rationale being that the combination of low wage and government handouts makes up a minimum wage level when combined. Its just some companies are so tight they don't pay. Example: Many companies repeated RECORD sales and profits are at the expense of taxpayers covering the handouts to their staff and they are not alone. They would rather pay record dividends than pay staff.

I would go on but you've got me annoyed now.

Al

 

[beech1948]

chipmunk,

****Sorry Al but removing a veto isn't exactly earth shattering or doing anything undemocratic IMHO and it's still only words even if you feel it is a threat.***

It is both undemocratic and a threat.

****The Tobin tax isn't a bad idea either is it?****

Yes it is because we will pay through higher charges.

****It seems to me that there are double standards here as usual. It's perfectly acceptable for ordinary people to pay Stamp Duty on big financial transactions in the UK but levying a fraction of a % on the poor chaps in the City and hell will freeze over. I'm sorry but I don't buy it.****

Not what I said. Not my double standard. Your leaping to a statement which does not reflect what I said or meant. As it happens I agree that the UK financial institutions should have been taxed for £100 Billion per year for the last two years and that all banking bonuses should be taxed at 95%. The banks were the root cause of current distress and have got off scot free by both Labour and Coalition governments.

****Why should the rest of us (both here and in the rest of the EU) be taxed "until the pips squeak" and yet others, some of whom got us into this mess, get away with it?****

Again your statement not mine. I am very sympathetic.
For the UK the issue is that we do not protest en masse. The problem with Governments is that they are greedy and wasteful. THe UK Government has taken about 54% of GDP from us by direct and indirect tax for the past 10 yrs.

The solution is simple. We the people must force Government to stay within a set budget that can only be changed and increased by referendum. We must insist that the Petrol Escalator tax be reduced to set petrol at £1 per litre at a minimum. We must insist upon smaller government and less intrusion into our lives. Getting the Government drug fix off our backs would revitalise the UK. Time to have a clear statement about Gov will provide and not provide.

Education..yes to a nationally agreed standard or teachers wages go down
NHS yes to an agreed cost and standard but to hell with free IVF etc etc
Defense..yes
Welfare..to be scaled back. If you can't read then you are forced to gain some level of competance. The same with math. Don't work and not so disabled as to prevent you working then no benefits. Unemployed youth find a role helping a company to earn your benefits.

Companies who employ staff on low wages so that they are eligible for Government handouts should be penalised. That is tax credits of all types should be recovered from the companies involved. The rationale being that the combination of low wage and government handouts makes up a minimum wage level when combined. Its just some companies are so tight they don't pay. Example: Many companies repeated RECORD sales and profits are at the expense of taxpayers covering the handouts to their staff and they are not alone. They would rather pay record dividends than pay staff.

I would go on but you've got me annoyed now.

Al

 

[chipmunk]

I would go on but you've got me annoyed now.

With respect Al, I think you did that yourself ;-)

Guys it's been fun exchanging views but I'm afraid that life's too short and we're as far from one another as we were at the outset.

We will not be agreeing anytime soon because we have different versions of reality which I think I've said before.
Jon

 

[Digit]

Reality is that the EU exists, and like all attempts at federalism that haven't taken the people along with it, it will fail. Check your history Jon, my reality is based on the past and human nature, that will change only when people want it to, you can take a horse to water......

Roy.