Waterstones, Guides, Diamond Stones many old new questions.

[Chems]

Having sold my Tormek but having found a new passion for hand tools I'm after some sharpening kit.

Waterstones vs Diamond.

A friend recommended me the DMT stones, and I had a look at them tonight and was suprised as they look just like the cheap little credit card diamond stones on a thick plastic base. At nearly £50 they aren't cheap.

I have instead been looking at richards basic water stone kit.

I hear they cut quicker and some feel they produce a better edge but can be a bit messy which I don't mind, a good starting point?

Expensive guide vs Inexpensive.

I'd like a guide, I can do it by hand but I prefer not to have to concentrate on it so hard, but again having seen the Veritas jig tonight which is expensive it doesn't look to do much more than this.

So can I just get one of these for my basic single bevel.

TIA

 

[SVB]

I think to some extent this is a largely personal choice area and they will all do the job. However, your asked for an opinion so this is my take (but it IS ONLY an opinion):

I currently use a jet waterstone machine for the primary bevel re-grind, a fine diamond stone for the initial second bevel and a 6000 grit waterstone for the polish. I also have a 0.3 micron diamond paper on glass that I use if I am feeling enthusiastic but to be honest mostly the 6000 grit is the end of the story.

Having been down both the w/ and d/ stone route if I were starting again I think I would go down the scary sharp route. (Workshop Heaven have a starter kit but I am sure other sell the stuff as well). Not having tried this full solution (just a final super polish) I am not sure how well it would deal with primary bevel re-grind after damage so I may be tempted to hang onto a med diamond as well. I am sure others will advise.

Re jigs, I am a fan of the eclipse clones that do all I ask (again, not sure how compatable with s/sharp approach). The veritas stuff seems to be over complicated / engineered to achieve a very similar result and is therefore not good value (imho) esp as they would sell you additional rollers etc to suplement the basic kit that is expensive by itself. Kell stuff looks fansatic. The side clamping one may be of use (esp with the s/sharp papers as the rollers are to the side) but the mk III where you have to make loads of wedges and faff around is not for me I am afraid although it has many fans on this board.

So really, pay's y'money and takes y choice but the above are my thoughts - over to others.

(btw - a quick search will give loads of info as this is not a new question as I think you hint at in the post title).

Best regards,

Simon

 

[woodbloke]

My two euros worth as well. As you know there are loads of different methods and each user has to find a method that suits. I've been down the waterstone route (far too messy...a sink with running water is mandatory) and DMT stones. These are good, but the use of an Eclipse type guide meant that only half the diamonds could be used at any one time (but the stone could be reversed) If you decide to go for these then the Extra Coarse (for primary bevel grinding) and the Extra Extra Fine are recommended, but you'd still need to polish on a finer stone...I used a 10000g Spyderco ceramic but you could use a slab of MDF with metal polish. I had problems with the Eclipse guide, so now use the Kell III and 3M films (the complete range) from Workshop Heaven (the infamous 'Scary Sharp' method) which is by far the best that I've used so far. The films will degrade and do get damaged over time, but are cheap enough to replace fairly regularly. Bear in mind though, that although the Kell III will hold 98% of all your hand tools, it's not an intuitive piece of kit as different wedges need to be made for each application - Rob

 

[Peter T]

For what it's worth, I have some Norton water-stones, some DMT, and I just started experimenting with 3M film.

Norton - I have 2 combination stones, the 120/1000 and the 4000/8000. The 120 removes metal very quickly but is too soft and needs a lot of flattening. The result of this is that mine is now down to about half it's original thickness, and that's just with hobby use! The other water-stones are excellent, the 8000 in particular giving a mirror finish. As already stated, they are messy to use.

DMT - I got a DMT Extra Extra Course to use instead of the Norton 120. This gives very fast removal rates and, obviously, stays flat. I also have a combination Red/Green (600/1200) which also work well and are less messy than the water-stones. Finally I have the Extra Extra Fine which is OK but not as good as the 8000 water-stone. Although they are the same 8000 mesh, I believe the Norton is 1.2 micron whereas the DMT is 3 micron??

3M - I have just started to try some of the 0.3 micron film. I use this to put on a final, final polish and it seems to work well. I end up with a sharper edge than can be produced with the 8000 water-stone.

Good luck,

 

[SVB]

It does make one wonder how some of the fine furniture was made 300 yrs ago without all this stuff / options or does 300 yrs of 'patina' hide the odd bit of torn grain anyway!

S

 

[Paul Chapman]

I've used the DMT polka dot diamond stones for many years. While they seemed expensive at the time, over the long-term they've been good value. Mine are the 8" stones which I would recommend over the 6" ones. I use them with oil.

I now use a Tormek for primary bevel grinding.

The diamond stones won't give a sufficiently polished finish if you want super-sharp blades. I finish mine now on a piece of wood and a few dabs of Solvol-Autosol. I used to use a leather strop with jewellers rouge. While this gave a high polish I think the flexibility of the leather tended to round over the edge. I find the wood with Solvol Autosol a better combination - my blades have never been so sharp.

I use various honing guides.......

Cheers :wink:

Paul

 

[Saint Simon]

Dangerous waters these but here goes!!!

1. Tormek, re-establishing initial bevel whenever necessary,
2. 1000 Japanese water stone by hand,
3. 8000 Japanese water stone by hand.

Quick and sharp,
Just my opinion for what its worth,
Simon

 

[mickthetree]

DMT extra course for flattening backs of chisels, plane blades and for keeping water stones flat.

Eclipse guide with sheet abrasive roll (typically 80 grit) on large sheet of float glass. I use this for regrinding an edge, takes seconds.

King 800 waterstone for refining the edge slightly.

Sometimes use a 1200 grit waterstone in here if I feel the need

King 6000 water stone for final polish.

Works for me.

HTH.

 

[Chems]

Thats all very helpful lots of good points of views and quite a few continues themes from you all throughout, I think perhaps I will start with the scary sharp and some of the really low mircon stuff for a final polish.

I'll just get one of those cheap guides from the bay as they look identical really to the Richard Kell guide in what it does.

Then perhaps a coarse diamond stone for the back flattening and intial nick removal.

Sound ok?

 

[studders]

If you're doing a variety of woodwork then I don't think one 'method' will cover all your needs.
Been said already but each has their own preferred method/s and I reckon I've tried most of them in the hunt for the 'perfect edge' , which I doubt I've ever achieved, and spent a fair bit of dosh doing so.
Regardless of what others say/recommend I think one has to try many methods for oneself before you get to a degree of sharpness and ease of sharpening that you're willing to 'accept' as opposed to finding the 'Holy Grail' of sharpening.

 

[woodbloke]

Thats all very helpful lots of good points of views and quite a few continues themes from you all throughout, I think perhaps I will start with the scary sharp and some of the really low mircon stuff for a final polish.

I'll just get one of those cheap guides from the bay as they look identical really to the Richard Kell guide in what it does.

Then perhaps a coarse diamond stone for the back flattening and intial nick removal.

Sound ok?

If you're going to get some 3M films then save a bit of wonga and get hold of a couple sheets of the 100micron and some d/s tape. I use this stuff to hone the single bevel on my Jap chisels and it munches through steel at an alarming rate :shock: ...if you can't get on with it, I'd then go for the coarse DMT - Rob

 

[Trizza]

I started with scary sharp (although admittedly not the 3M films, just stuff I could buy locally) and didn't really like it too much - I didn't like faffing about with glue and glue removal and stuff. It does work though, and its definitely an economical way to start! I recently splurged and got myself a full set of DMT 8*3 DiaSharp (continuous with the steel base) stones and I'm really happy with them. Although, as others say, the finish of the 8000 grit Extra Extra Fine stone isn't very polished. I've just bought a bar of metal polish so I'll be trying that out on MDF for the final polish.

 

[Chems]

I'll do that rob, I think the DMT stone is a lot for what it is.

So many methods there are, I got good results with the Tormek but got out of square edges more than once and even my best efforts with it weren't as sharp as Alfs Spokeshave. Its not a complete soultion that what I learnt.

 

[barkwindjammer]

With a piece of float glass (I use an old toughened glass chopping board which I found at the local tip) you can put a small fold at the end of your lapping film-tuck this around the edge of the glass so its folded underneath (an inch fold holds fine) then sit the glass and the folded edge onto that 'grippy matting stuff', stroke your cutting edge away from the 'fold' and there's no need for faffing around with adhesive.

 

[cadders75]

Thats all very helpful lots of good points of views and quite a few continues themes from you all throughout, I think perhaps I will start with the scary sharp and some of the really low mircon stuff for a final polish.

I'll just get one of those cheap guides from the bay as they look identical really to the Richard Kell guide in what it does.

Then perhaps a coarse diamond stone for the back flattening and intial nick removal.

Sound ok?

If you're going to get some 3M films then save a bit of wonga and get hold of a couple sheets of the 100micron and some d/s tape. I use this stuff to hone the single bevel on my Jap chisels and it munches through steel at an alarming rate :shock: ...if you can't get on with it, I'd then go for the coarse DMT - Rob

Agreed, Matthew from workshop heaven gave me a free sheet to help prep some AI Dovetail Chisels, I now use it in place of my ezelap coarse Diamond stone to establish the primary bevels and flatten plane soles and chisel backs. I use a cheapo eclipse type guide on it to establish the bevels, switching to another one for final sharpening on my stock of wet and Dry.

Once I have used up what I have I'll pay a visit to Workshop Heaven for a full set of 3M films.

 

[Alf]

So many methods there are, I got good results with the Tormek but got out of square edges more than once and even my best efforts with it weren't as sharp as Alfs Spokeshave. Its not a complete soultion that what I learnt.

Just to throw cats in amongst pigeons, that had the final edge put on (A2) with a fine Arkansas oilstone, freehand. Wise grasshopper could learn much from this if grasshopper puts mind to it. One of which is "Not all irons will fit in honourable honing guide" and another is "Does not matter what the abrasive is, it is how grasshopper use it that leads way to path of enlightenment". However, be relieved to hear that sound of one hand sharpening not pertinent to grasshopper's quest. :wink:

Cheers, Alf
Who may possibly have been over-doing the noodle soup

 

[woodbloke]

Wise grasshopper could learn much from this if grasshopper puts mind to it. One of which is "Not all irons will fit in honourable honing guide"
Cheers, Alf
Who may possibly have been over-doing the noodle soup

...just to add more confuzzlement to the mix, 'shave blades are just some that will fit easily into a Kell III. Al...suggest you lay off the magic mushrooms :lol: :lol: - Rob

 

[Alf]

Wooden spokeshave kit, Rob. Think it'd struggle.

 

[woodbloke]

Wooden spokeshave kit, Rob. Think it'd struggle.

Understando...it would! :lol: :lol: - Rob

 

[Schtoo]

Just to throw cats in amongst pigeons, that had the final edge put on (A2) with a fine Arkansas oilstone, freehand. Wise grasshopper could learn much from this if grasshopper puts mind to it. One of which is "Not all irons will fit in honourable honing guide" and another is "Does not matter what the abrasive is, it is how grasshopper use it that leads way to path of enlightenment". However, be relieved to hear that sound of one hand sharpening not pertinent to grasshopper's quest. :wink:

Cheers, Alf
Who may possibly have been over-doing the noodle soup

Don't make me post a picture in favour of waterstones...

(If you've been looking around, yes, that one. Only now, I'm doing it freehand with a Blue Chip too. A2 some other time, if it can manage that sharp.)


To the OP, best I can suggest is that if you decide to go looking at what's available sharpening wise, gets hands on something, not just reading about it. I use waterstones because of my own reasons (fast, cheap, simple, cheap, effective, cheap...) but I'm not so silly to suggest they're for everyone or every situation.

And unless you have an appointment penned in with the grim reaper, there's no need to rush into any decision.

Stu.