Wadkin 20" BZB bandsaw

[Farmer Giles]

I just bought a Wadkin 20" BZB bandsaw, 3 phase, ex school machine. I'm picking it up at the weekend. Probably needs a little bit of TLC but its a worker. I'm going to use it in the downstairs barn to resaw the big planks of oak and other wood I have from getting trees planked before taking them upstairs into the workshop for making into furniture and other stuff.

What is the best place to get Wadkin spares like guides, possibly tyres if needed etc? I'm going to get a couple of new blades from tuffsaws.

Cheers
Andy

 

[Farmer Giles]

I've done a bit of research and it seems guides are available, about 110 quid for a complete new top or bottom if I need them. it didn't cost a lot and is nearby so can pick it up so don't mind spending a few bob on it. I may just replace the bearings as typically they are just standard bearings at ten quid a piece. I will not do a full restoration, honest, I think.....

It comes with an after market kreg fence, same as I have on the startrite 351. I've bought a longer bit of heavy duty kreg track for the fence so I can clamp it both sides of the table and the rail will extend beyond the table so I can use the full 20" throat for resawing as the table doesn't extend that far. The track is 4 foot long so I can cut it in half and use it on the startrite too as stupidly the fence that comes with the kreg precision fence is a bit on the short side.

It may not be designed as a resaw but will do what I need it to do. I may go the full monty and get a Wadkin DR in future The BZB could then go upstairs and replace the 351 - maybe.

Cheers
Andy

 

[TFrench]

This thread is useless without pictures!

 

[Farmer Giles]

They're coming don't worry I hope to pick it up Friday morning.

 

[Farmer Giles]

I picked it up earlier, after days of sunshine it decided to rain but it was light rain and a short journey, everything now dried off and covered in DWD40.

I saw it running before I picked it up, it sounded very sweet and once turned off it went on far ages so I think the spindle bearings are fine. The brake works but needs a a bit of adjustment.

The original fence is long gone but if comes with a Kreg precision fence that needs fitting. I have done this already with my Startrite 351 so not an issue

The only bit missing that I do need to replace is the lower guide, it is completely missing. This was in the advert and the owner said it was like that when it came out of the school and had been running from new without a lower guide, it was optional on educational machines.

I'm a little sceptical about that as I can't find that statement in the Wadkin library but the machine was cheap enough to source/modify one to fit.

Here's the hole that the lower guide would have occupied, there would have been a small ball lever on the left to clamp it in the hole.

According to the manual, the bottom guide is almost identical to the top guide so I have something to copy. Here's the upper guides, needs some TLC.

It is fabricated so I could make most of it on the mill and lathe. Alternatively I may be able to use the Wadkin C500 cast guides and modify them. I have emailed Wadkin for some advice.

Here's the C5 cast guides

I think with a piece of bar with a slot in it to go through the base and a new ball lever and by swapping a few things around it may work, but I need some more dimensional data to confirm. It maybe that Wadkin have the original and the price doesn't make me faint, we shall see

 

[Farmer Giles]

I had a bit of a brainwave, I have been considering the Axminster guides for the Startrite 351 and the lower guide looks eminently adaptable to the Wadkin so ordered a set. Worst case is that they will just end up on the Startrite. It's sounds like the bearings are cheap however I have boxes of bearings and they aren't dear to buy.

I'm also in the middle of a tuffsaws order, I'm going with a 3/4" M42 blade for the oak as it has loads of bark on it and who knows if there is the odd staple in there. I hit a staple in the middle of a willow I was cutting up for firewood recently with the chainsaw recently, yet another chain to sharpen.

 

[Farmer Giles]

Axminster are very good at delivering, I ordered within 15 minutes of their next day service deadline but opted for the standard delivery and the kit arrived this morning.

First impressions are quite favourable for the money, top and bottom for about 2/3rd the cost of the just the bottom C500 guide from Wadkin, not sure if the quality is similar as I only have the Axminster ones but they aren't bad and if the bearing are cheap, new ones are only a couple of quid each and I probably have a few already, 6000Z bearing for the rear thrust and a couple of 608Z for either side.

The side bearings are mounted on eccentric shafts so you can adjust the blade clearance. Both side and thrust bearings have fore/aft micro adjustment. The rear thrust bearing is one of those crazy edge guides, but many manufacturers do the same. If I was being pedantic, I would want to turn that through 90 degrees but my main aim is to get the bandsaw to work sooner rather then later, I can fiddle about with that later if I keep her.

First impression is that from one plane, i.e. from the front, they will fit. As you can see here the mounting is on the left of the guide and the hole for the guide is on the left of the blade. I would need to measure this more precisely to be sure but I am pretty sure I can fabricate the rod that fits into the bandsaw base to fit the guide correctly

However from the side it isn't so easy. As you can see here, the fore/aft adjusters foul the bandsaw where the red line is. The guide will be lifted a bit so that one may have more room, but then the other adjuster will catch where the green line is. So the guide needs to go back about an inch, I would need to measure this more precisely.

I don't really need the micro-adjusters, The bar that goes through the base moves for and aft. I do need to move the rear bearing in relation to the others, but only about 10mm max so I could just slice through the guide where the red line is below. I would replace the thumbscrews with hex cap head bolts too.

I have a few more things to do before I need to use the bandsaw so before I start slicing and dicing I will look at the Wadkin C500 lower guide which looks shallower. I did look at the after market Startrite roller guides fromA.L.T Saws and Spares , they seem shallower but they don't recommend any wider than a 1/2" blade for the lower guide.

Cheers
Andy

 

[custard]

Mmmm! Likey, likey.

 

[Farmer Giles]

One thing I can confirm is that the top guide of the Axminster upgrade set doesn't fit the Startrite 351, I've heard it fits the 352 but its just that bit too big for the 351 and wouldn't be worth modifying.

Plan was to fit the lower guide to the Wadkin and the upper to the Startrite. I think I can only achieve half of that now but they may come in handy one day.

I found a bit of 5/8" bar to go in the hole in the Wadkin base, and a bristol lever to clamp it. I think the bar should have a slot in it to stop rotation that the clamp goes into, I shall check the manual/parts guide. Shouldn't be difficult to mill a slot.

 

[Farmer Giles]

Checking the diagrams, the 5/8" bar doesn't have a slot in it, but it does have a shaft with an eccentric end like part no 78 in the following diagram primarily so you can move the guides from side to side. That means sticking the 5/8" bar into a four jaw chuck and purposely setting it off centre before carefully turning it down. The diagram is of the upper guide but the lower is almost identical except for about 3 parts listed in the parts list and being upside down compared to the upper.

Here's the original lower guide in situ.

So all I need to do is turn down the 5/8" bar to make the eccentric pin and attach it to an adaptor plate for the guide mounting and slice the unnecessary micro-adjusters off that foul the bandsaw body.

The Wadkin C500 lower guide is £130 quid so I think I will stick with the Axminster. If I come across a Wadkin BZB for spares in the future I will try and grab the guides Alternatively, if it ends up being moved upstairs and having a full restoration, I shall make some with the rear thrust bearing the right way round

Cheers
Andy

 

[Bm101]

Great thread Andy. Missed this one somehow. Miles out of my comfort zone of course but always good to see how the big boys roll.

 

[Farmer Giles]

Cheers Chris. I've been doing a bit of research, the guides that Wadkin and other sell are made by Panhans. They also make some more generic guides in two sizes, both top and bottom. Scott and Sergeant sell them, not cheap but look a lot like they would fit easily, I shall give them a call. I will probably send the Axminster guides back as they don't fit the Startrite and may fit the Wadkin with a lot of butchery. I have also got some feelers out for original second hand spares but nothing definite yet.

Conway woodworking machinery have some nice guides, look to be Panhans too but a wider range. I shall make some more calls. Last resort is Axminster guide butchery, very possible but I'm up against it time wise with the utility and kitchen refit high on the agenda and SWMBO deserves a bit more making rather than tool gathering so I will go with the quickest route to a working bandsaw.

 

[Farmer Giles]

Panhans lower guide bought from Scott & Sergeant. It looks like it should fit, standard equipment on more modern Wadkin machines. I shall find out if it will fit at the weekend. I also bought the right shade of hammered paint from Bitec coatings, just in case I need it :wink:

 

[Farmer Giles]

A friend drove my car to pick up the bandsaw as I am still awaiting my license back from DVLA after surgery, any time now I hope!

We used his small plant trailer with fixed sides and the bandsaw was put on the trailer without a pallet by the seller. This made it difficult to unload, I couldn't use my bobcat with forks underneath it, and my bobcat is only 500kg lift, and only if you have the load close to, so trying to dangle the bandsaw at the end of the forks with a sling was a no-no even if I could lift it high enough.

Fortunately another friend was around with his digger, moving some stone into the field. He quickly dropped his bucket off the digger, we pushed the trailer out of the barn to get more head room, and with a couple so slings we had the bandsaw sitting in the barn on a strong pallet in no time.

Ian at Tuffsaws advised me on the best length of sawblade for the machine ( 3795mm) as there is quite a large range and the 3/4" 3tpi cobalt blade is now winging it's way over. Once I have put a three phase plug on it, the new lower guide (assuming it fits relatively easily), the new blade and replaced the bearings in the top guide it will be ready for final adjustment and work

The paint can wait a while, it's not too bad and the good news is that it doesn't look like that apprentice with the tin of hammerite and no brush has visited the saw, it looks like the original paint.

Cheers
Andy

 

[Farmer Giles]

The Panhans GL456 guide turned up today, I have only had chance to have a cursory glance at it. First impression is that it will fit, but not sure if I have to do any fabrication yet.

As you can see, it is a different beast to the Axminster upgrade guides, but at £130 quid it should be

I couldn't find any dimensions on any resellers sites or Panhans web site. All it said is that it is for up to 25mm blade width and up to 600mm bandsaw wheels which doesn't exactly help if your trying to find out if it will physically fit.

If you look from above then with the bracket it looks the same depth as the Axminster, but the bracket won't foul the bandsaw base the same way as it is in a different location but it still may be tight.

However, I may be able to do without the bracket completely as per the next photo. The hole in the guide is 20mm and the mounting bar on the bandsaw just under 16mm (5/8") so I will have to weld a 20mm bit to the end of the 5/8" rod which I can offset to take into account any slight misalignment. I've only put the smaller rod in the guide to show the general idea.

I'm out with the wife and kids tomorrow but should be able to find time to try it on the bandsaw. If there is room for the bracket then it should be a doddle.

Cheers
Andy

 

[Farmer Giles]

After a nice walk in the country I set to and had a proper look at the new guides on the machine. As I suspected the supplied guide fixing bracket is too thick and gets in the way. But it is possible to do it without it. Here's the guide offered up to the blade. You can see the mounting hole to the left is out of alignment with the hole in the bandsaw, I estimated it at about 8 to 10mm.

And from the side there is enough room to adjust for different blade widths but the screw clamp for the thrust roller isn't much use, but it could be swapped for hex head bolt.

So I thought I would knock up a quick prototype, I had the materials to hand and about an hour before I had to get the kids to bed. So I turned and parted some 7/8" bar I had down to 20mm and I already had loads of 5/8" bar for the mounting hole in the bandsaw base, that just needed the end squaring off.

After chamfering some of the ends that will meet to help welding penetration, I clamped the two rods together off centre to make a cam.

Then MIG welded it up, not the prettiest weld I've done but I put plenty of heat in it to get good penetration. I had to clean a bit of spatter off the shaft so it didn't bind in the hole.

Then try it out, here's the cam in the mounting hole. I put a slot in the end with the slitting disc in the angle grinder so I can turn it once the guide is in place.

And with the guide attached, once the cam is turned to its optimal position, the guide's own sideways adjustment can be used to get the blade supported but not deflected. Ideally the cam needed a few mm more. It would work at this but for the sake of a couple of bits of bar and a weld I may as well get it right.

From this side it fits OK, the clamp knob needs changing for a bolt but it is just about usable. Once the bristol lever to clamp the rod in the bandsaw base and the clamp on the guide are tightened up then the guide doesn't move at all.

And from the other side, as predicted the clamp knob for the thrust roller fouls the base but that can be swapped for a bolt.

Tomorrow I will have a good look at the prototype to see how it can be improved. About 4mm extra on the cam I think, but if I used a plate between the two rods and added an extra 10mm to the cam throw then I would be able to raise the guide up a bit an maybe the knobs would clear the base? I'll check it in the morning before starting more ceiling soundproofing and plaster boarding, what a horrible job.

 

[Farmer Giles]

Time for mk II with a bit more throw on the cam. I made really good progress on the utility room, plasterboarding, plumbing and wiring done and I even mortared the stone window cills on so ready for plasterers next weekend. I did the cloakroom wiring and plumbing tonight so just a bit more plaster boarding before next weekend - then I can get back to making stuff

But I did sneak out mk II. Here's the beginning, a bar with 2 x 16mm holes, they are 18mm apart. One is for the 20mm pivot for the guide which I turned a shoulder down to 16mm, and the other is for the 5/8" pivot in the bandsaw base which is just under 16mm so fits nicely. Here's the 16mm pivot in place, I chamfered the edge of the pivot to help welding penetration, the idea is to fill the hole with weld then grind it back.

Here's it welded.

Then ground back

The 20mm pivot is inserted from the other side then welded and ground back and you have this.

Trial fit, the end needs a bit more material removing as it fouls the table tilt pivot nut.

So I take a bit more off with the power file until it misses then give it a try. Looks OK from the front. I didn't really need to cut a slot to turn the cam, it has sufficient throw to be able to move it by manipulating the guide. You can get it nice and central now, it is also much higher so the pivot and rear thrust bearing clamp knobs don't foul the base.

From the side its looks about the same as Mk I. The guide is right to the back and the teeth are just missing the guide rollers. And this is with the blade slightly off centre tracking wise, slightly more to the front, however it was yesterday with Mk I , I found that out later.

From the other side you can see the table pivot nut looks to be right up against the back of the guide.

I'm going to look at it again tomorrow and see if there is anything else to do to move the guide back a bit more and I may try a wider blade, most of the time it will be running a 3/4" 3 tpi blade so I shall see how that fits. I feel that Mk I has a bit more room behind so I need to try both again and take a closer look. If it is significant the I shall make another Mk 1 with a bit more throw to get the guides more central and swap out the clamp knobs for allen bolts. I won't get power to it until next week at which point I shall test it.

Cheers
Andy

 

[Farmer Giles]

I didn't get time to do much today, I have started to swap out the blade for the 3/4" tuffsaws blade I intend to use mostly. While doing that I thought I would check out the top guides.

The shrouds are still on the bearings so that is a good start.

The more beat up one of the two has a circlip missing and is nearly seized and may prove difficult to remove, I shall attack it with the angle grinder and slitting disc if it doesn't want to budge after a a bit of a soak.

One of the side roller bearings is seized and the other as seen better days, the parts manual, as usual for machines of this age, is less than useful. Instead of giving the type and size with the standard codes if gives the original manufacturer and their code.

I couldn't find a cross reference for a Fischer DN200, there was aFischer bearing manufacturers in Wolverhampton now closed and became part of TImken during the war probably as it was of German ownership. I guess this is a post war machine so probably nothing to do with that but interesting anyhow

The ones on now are ubiquitous 6200DU or 62002RS as they are more commonly called. SKF are about 3 quid each but given the use and ease of change I have ordered a pack of 10 for 6 quid of some no-name bearings.

The rear thrust roller is in good nick so no need to do much there for now.

Cheers
Andy

 

[Farmer Giles]

I have put the lower guide fettling on hold until I have the upper guide back together and the new blade in. I took the two sides of the top guide apart. Here's the exploded view. The shrouds are a bit worse for wear, one is almost completely worn through and there is an odd assortment of adjusting nuts.

The spindle on each consists of a 10mm section for the bearing, a slot for the circlip, a 1/4" whitworth thread and then a knurled area. Or at least it should. The left handed threaded one has been replaced with what looks like an old 1/4" BSW left hand threaded bolt with the head turned down to accept the bearing and the lower end of the thread turned down to a smaller size and threaded.

I was going to make a new left hand threaded spindle, a bit of welding, a piece of LH threaded bar, a LH 1/4" BSW tap and die, a knurling tool and away you go. But I think I have found a brand new replacement including bearing, shroud and the correct knurled nut. Not cheap mind.

To make old machines viable cost wise, you should do as much replacement and as many repairs as you can yourself. But in this case, by the time I had totted up the costs of the bits, it wasn't far off the bought unit and I am strapped for time at the moment so will buy one tomorrow.

Cheers
Andy

 

[Farmer Giles]

I ordered the Panhans APA2 type 1 lower to see if it is better from a fore and aft adjustment perspective as the Panhans GL456 doesn't go back far enough to get the blade on the crown of the top wheel. If I'm paying £150 for a guide, I would rather spend a few quid more and get it right.

First impression is that this is a quality piece of kit. Nicely finished and quality components. The GL456 was a step up from the Axminster guides, this is a step up again in terms of quality.

So quick size up from the front, I haven't taken the other guide off in this shot but it was obvious that the right hand side of the guide would foul the base of the bandsaw.

So I took the GL456 guide out and took a closer look, from the side it is obvious it does the job, loads of room compared to the other. The blade hasn't got any tension in it and is further forward than when in use but still it can be seen that all the gubbins is out front so very little to obstruct rearward movement.

I check the side guides, they are not handed like the originals, so it doesn't matter which guide goes on which side of the blade so I flipped the guide over and moved the mounting/thrust roller part to the other side and now the lowest part of the guide where the mounting shaft goes fits into the sawdust chute. As there is fore/aft adjust available on the base of the bandsaw, I don't need it here too, so I can bolt in the mounting bar, which is 16mm OD, not 20mm of the other, and replace the t-bar with a bolt but the rear thrust roller adjustment is still accessible.

So I think we have a winner, if the manufacturers included some dimensional drawings I wouldn't have had to go through this extended selection process. So hopefully posting details here and on the MIG welding forum means others that need new/missing guides for a BZB or similar can benefit from my experience.

I shall sleep on it before making the adaptor to fit the guide, I may be able to use the supplied bracket.

The new top guide spindles/nuts/bearings arrived from Advanced Machinery. The bracket they attach to was looking very scabby.

So I went over it with a knotted wire wheel in the angle grinder, roughed it up a bit with some sandpaper as it was a bit shiny for good paint adhesion and introduced it to the correct shade of light green hammered paint from Bitec coatings.

I've started replacing the selection of random bolts with some that fit and cleaning up the others and will reassemble in the morning, putting the kids to bed/bath stops play, that and the TT on Channel 4 with a beer

Cheers
Andy