Veritas Dovetail saw

[Trafalgar]

You don't think that Veritas has a consistent look through their line? You must be kidding.

They make good products but I do believe in this instance producing 'the look' had primacy. You just can't beat a brass-backed joinery saw.

 

[swagman]

Its design makes it far easier and cheaper to mass produce. Of interest. Imagine how ugly their saws would look if the grip was made of the same material as the spine. Clever sales marketing by Veritas to add the Bubinga grip.

 

[Trafalgar]

Its design makes it far easier and cheaper to mass produce. Of interest. Imagine how ugly their saws would look if the grip was made of the same material as the spine. Clever sales marketing by Veritas to add the Bubinga grip.

I suppose that's true but brass backed saws have certainly been mass produced before and at a far greater rate than Veritas is called on to produce its composition backed saws. Perhaps this bit of manufacturing know-how has been lost?

 

[bugbear]

A quick glance at an old (circa 1925) Melhuish catalogue reveals a Stanley #4 Bedrock at 8/9 and a Henry Disston 12" brass backed saw at 5/9

That's a ratio of 105:69 or 1.52

The cheapest #4 bedrock, presumably made with all the wonders of modern production technology is the QS, at £130 from WSH.

So the going "old price in modern currency" for a brass backed saw is £85.

(Of course, a Clifton #4 is £254 giving a "Sheffield price" for the saw of £167)

BugBear

 

[Trafalgar]

Its design makes it far easier and cheaper to mass produce. Of interest. Imagine how ugly their saws would look if the grip was made of the same material as the spine. Clever sales marketing by Veritas to add the Bubinga grip.

I actually wonder if they wouldn't have produced a better saw if the spine and grip were of one piece and of the same material.

 

[bugbear]

Its design makes it far easier and cheaper to mass produce. Of interest. Imagine how ugly their saws would look if the grip was made of the same material as the spine. Clever sales marketing by Veritas to add the Bubinga grip.

I actually wonder if they wouldn't have produced a better saw if the spine and grip were of one piece and of the same material.

I wonder if they considered it, before rejecting it.

BugBear

 

[beech1948]

I have (had ) 4 dovetail saws including a Veritas 14tpi.

1) Veritas 14tpi. Now sold after 12 months use to a friend. It was too light in weight, the spine was too broad as I am used to 9mm or less. Cut Ok but was not the most comfortable to hold.

2) Groves 18/20 tpi. Ancient (pre WW2) Daily user. Great weight, very straight and strong back, very comfy handle, narrow back vs Veritas. Harder to sharpen and I have just bought a magnifying lamp but all round excellent. Quite hard to find for me and took 18 months searching after using a friends saw.

3) Japanese saw. Lightweight, useful for narrow timber used in boxes. Its taken nearly 12 months to be at ease with using this and it is now accurate and very precise.

4) Marples. Now sold. Was a difficult to decide as the saws size was sort of part tenon saw part dovetail saw and thus just a bit unwieldy. Saw plate a bit thick. Heavy, closed handle - which is not my favourite - poor starting cutting, 14tpi a bit coarse but cut accurately.

Japanese saw is fastest cut. Groves second. Now only have Groves and Japanese saw for dovetails.

I don't think the Veritas is the best choice for a beginner. Something like the Groves, Marples or Tyzack would be fine at 14tpi or higher.

 

[Derek Cohen (Perth Oz)]

You don't think that Veritas has a consistent look through their line? You must be kidding.

They make good products but I do believe in this instance producing 'the look' had primacy. You just can't beat a brass-backed joinery saw.



The design seems more a mandate to differentiate themselves with a certain "look" than one aimed at producing a better saw per se. Classic designs are just that for a reason. It does come in at a price point and it may be the composition spine that helps get it there.

The Veritas dovetail saw is sold in Canada for $69 USD. Rob Streeper, who makes saws professionally in the USA, did a cost breakdown, and calculated that brass-backed saws on average cost $82 in materials and time (basic wages).

http://www.woodworkforums.com/showthrea ... ost1856109

I doubt that anyone selling in the $100 - $120 is getting rich fleecing the public, least of all LV or LN. I would argue that a fairer reflection for time expended for a custom saw is around $350, based on time. That would bring it in line with a premium handplane. Food for thought?

Regards from Perth

Derek

 

[Trafalgar]

The Lee Valley price point is absolutely a redeeming factor. I've always thought their pricing very fair.

A Crown brass backed 12" tenon saw sells in the US for $95 (Amazon pricing). It's not a bad saw at all and I think the pricing on it is fair as well. The grip is nothing to write home about but I've seen one recently and they're doing a much better job of rounding them out - it was actually pretty comfortable and the hang of the saw dead on for my taste. It's a traditional set up as far as I can tell from tip to tail, minus a whole lot of attention lavished on the handle which can be overdone IMO.

 

[bugbear]

http://www.amazon.com/Crown-Brass-Backe ... op?ie=UTF8

Certainly nothing "overdone" about that handle.

BugBear

 

[Trafalgar]

It's definitely not a saw for the crowd that demands a $250 grip to go along with 50 dollars' worth of other parts.

 

[mouppe]

What I was trying to get at earlier was that the Veritas saw is excellent value at $79. It is half the price of the Lie Nielsen dovetail saw, and as for saws that Lee Valley sells alongside its Veritas saw, you can buy the Pax for $115, the Wenzloff for $159, the Gramercy Tools for $219 and the Bad Axe for $289. It's fair to point out that Veritas is owned by Lee Valley, so there was not much point in them making an identical saw to what is already out there and which they already sell and trying to sell it for $10 less.

The design may not be to your taste, and the feel of the handle or weight of the saw may feel more or less suitable than others. But the plate is the same thickness and quality as my Lie Nielsen, and the handle is very comfortable. I wouldn't hesitate at recommending this saw to people. It is easy to sharpen (I have the 14tpi), my only grip is that it is too light in the hand for me as was also said by others before.

Aesthetics aside, you are getting an excellent saw for half the price of comparable brass-backed saws.

 

[Trafalgar]

It is a good value at $79 and there is nothing wrong with Rob Lee and his crew putting their spin on back saws. That said, people for whom it has no aesthetic appeal are unlikely to buy it simply because of its low price. And I'm sure this isn't lost on Rob Lee, either.

 

[swagman]

http://lumberjocks.com/JeremyPringle/blog/29675

http://www.popularwoodworking.com/tools ... vetail_saw

 

[Derek Cohen (Perth Oz)]

Well Stewie, what is your take on those links you kindly provide? Do you have an opinion about the nature of the comparison made in the first link?

Regards from Perth

Derek

 

[swagman]

Well Stewie, what is your take on those links you kindly provide? Do you have an opinion about the nature of the comparison made in the first link?

Regards from Perth

Derek

Hi Derek. I think it was a little unfair to compare the performance of cheaper Veritas to that of the more expensive LN and Bad Axe.

I was a little surprised when I viewed the close up photo of the Veritas machine sharpened crosscut saw teeth (2nd link). They look very ordinary. http://www.popularwoodworking.com/wp-co ... h-1637.jpg

Stewie;

 

[Trafalgar]

In fairness to Lee Valley there probably aren't very many less-than-$100 saws that wouldn't benefit from a refiling by a talented saw doctor/saw maker regardless of how they were filed when manufactured.

 

[Derek Cohen (Perth Oz)]

Stewie, I am not sure if the teeth of the LV are machine filed - many/most custom saws I know of have teeth punched by a machine, and then hand filed. I know that the early generation saw I received when LV were testing saw plates (prior to the release of the dovetail saw) was hand filed (in Japan as I recall).

The only issue I have with the LV saws I have is that there is a tad too little set, as they tended to bind at about 1/2" depth (I mentioned this in my review, where a touch of wax solved the problem). This may reflect that I have only used them in very hardwood. I reset the teeth on mine, and they now cut perfectly. When new, the teeth were as sharp as any newly hand-filed teeth.

Regards from Perth

Derek

 

[Trafalgar]

One hopes the picture posted by Stewie is not of a saw filed by hand.

 

[Derek Cohen (Perth Oz)]

One hopes the picture posted by Stewie is not of a saw filed by hand.

Charles, as I said, I do not know if they were hand or machine filed, and cannot find any reference - I think that image is a blow up off the LV website. How do you tell how they were filed? The only clear information (marks) on the image is that they were hammer set.

But does it have any relevance when the teeth, per se, cut as well as any premium saw? It seems to be a picky, non-issue.

Regards from Perth

Derek