Vaccine Passports (domestic).

[RobinBHM]

It is a real concern that so many from the BAME community are vaccine sceptics.

Sadly they are influenced by religious leaders, elders, social media bubbles.

 

[John Brown]

It is a real concern that so many from the BAME community are vaccine sceptics.

Sadly they are influenced by religious leaders, elders, social media bubbles.

And woodworking forums...

 

[sploo]

But we have had the tools for a long time. in 2015 about 30k people died of flu that winter (with a vaccine being used remember). No masks, no lockdown, no social distancing, no vaccine passport.

What Robin said in post #140.

 

[Rorschach]

What Robin said in post #140.

I understand they are not directly comparable, C19 is undoubtedly worse than flu was in that year, but we did nothing, not a thing, not a fraction of the response, no clamour for the government to do anything, no change in behaviour from anyone in the public, even the old and vulnerable. Indeed I would guess that the vast majority of people didn't know it was happening and didn't particularly care, even those who had a relative die that year probably wouldn't have thought it out of the ordinary at all.

 

[Blackswanwood]

I understand they are not directly comparable, C19 is undoubtedly worse than flu was in that year, but we did nothing, not a thing, not a fraction of the response, no clamour for the government to do anything, no change in behaviour from anyone in the public, even the old and vulnerable. Indeed I would guess that the vast majority of people didn't know it was happening and didn't particularly care, even those who had a relative die that year probably wouldn't have thought it out of the ordinary at all.

I think a factor is how deadly we each believe COVID 19 to be though. Regardless of whether it was the best response possible I believe what we have done has meant lower excess mortality than otherwise would have been the case. In your example therefore I would say the comparison doesn’t really work.

 

[Rorschach]

I think a factor is how deadly we each believe COVID 19 to be though. Regardless of whether it was the best response possible I believe what we have done has meant lower excess mortality than otherwise would have been the case. In your example therefore I would say the comparison doesn’t really work.

Could be, the problem we will always have is that we never tried any alternative and even more importantly we never tried just carrying on without government/media hysteria. Same goes for pretty much the rest of the planet in that regard.
As to excess mortality, well we have excess mortality from C19 (never denied that) and we have excess mortality from lockdown (media ignores this). How much is on each side though we might never know.

 

[Terry - Somerset]

There is increasing evidence the vaccine is (a) ~80%+ effective against severe disease and death, and (b) reduces transmission by ~75%.

Greater confidence in the evidence will emerge in the coming weeks.

In the UK compulsory vaccination has not been introduced for any diseases as (one assumes) personal freedom trumps risks to society.

The principal Covid risks lie with those who choose not to be vaccinated. The risk of the unvaccinated passing the virus to one who has leading to serious disease or death is very low.

In practical terms, by the time any passport system is established, vaccination and natural immunity will have reduced Covid to a level of risk possibly similar to flu.

I see no good reason for compulsion for the Covid vaccine - the anti-vaxxers will benefit from the good sense of the vaccinated, the vaccinated will not suffer from the stupity of the anti-vaxxers.

 

[Trainee neophyte]

• #139

Rorschach said:
Actually it seems there are several here that would like no vaccine to equal house arrest

argumentum ad absurdum

Perhaps we are reading different threads, or different languages...

So I don't find it unreasonable that if someone exercises their right to choose not to get vaccinated, then they need to accept that this will consequentialy limit their access to certain privileges (like visiting private property, obtaining employment, or traveling internationally).

I have come to believe that we should insist on vaccination for all and that those who still will not comply lose jobs, access to shops, cinema, football etc etc.

As far as I am concerned having the vax is a choice but if someone decides not to have it then they will need to accept that choice will exclude them from many things.

If people refuse vaccination for some twisted belief and potentially put others at risk then they should not be upset if they have problems getting a job or leaving the country etc etc.

 

[sploo]

I understand they are not directly comparable, C19 is undoubtedly worse than flu was in that year, but we did nothing, not a thing, not a fraction of the response, no clamour for the government to do anything, no change in behaviour from anyone in the public, even the old and vulnerable. Indeed I would guess that the vast majority of people didn't know it was happening and didn't particularly care, even those who had a relative die that year probably wouldn't have thought it out of the ordinary at all.

Because, as you said, they're not directly comparable; the impact on the NHS, the level of transmission, and effect on personal health is massively different between the two - which is not to dismiss the fact that people do unfortunately die as a result of influenza.

 

[Rorschach]

Because, as you said, they're not directly comparable; the impact on the NHS, the level of transmission, and effect on personal health is massively different between the two - which is not to dismiss the fact that people do unfortunately die as a result of influenza.

Every winter though the media tells us the NHS will be overwhelmed, they never are. One day they might be. You skipped over my point though I notice.

 

[sploo]

Every winter though the media tells us the NHS will be overwhelmed, they never are

Let me just stop you there. No, seriously. With the greatest respect, just because you don't known what you're talking about it doesn't mean it's not happening. I see the fear and exhaustion of overworked doctors who have just about been coping for years, and covid has pushed them beyond any reasonable point. Meanwhile the public clap for them in the streets like moronic seals... and then go and vote for parties that continue to defund the NHS.

You skipped over my point though I notice.

You mean the fact people don't shout about doing something re flu? Levels of impact; it's bad, but clearly not considered bad enough to prioritise improvements vs other pressures.

 

[alanpo68]

Every winter though the media tells us the NHS will be overwhelmed, they never are. One day they might be. You skipped over my point though I notice.

The NHS does get overwhelmed every winter. Waiting times go through the roof, elderly patients end up on trolleys because there are no beds and routine operations get cancelled.

The huge difference is that ICU's rarely get overwhelmed. Without lockdowns, social distancing and the closing of schools we would have rapidly reached a point at which tens of thousands of people would have died completely unnecessarily. We would have reached the point Italy reached last year and have had to lock down anyway.

Look at the USA where large swathes of the Country have refused to implement lockdown and social distancing and half a million people have died.

 

[Rorschach]

Look at the USA where large swathes of the Country have refused to implement lockdown and social distancing and half a million people have died.

The USA has proportionally the same number of deaths we have had.

 

[Rorschach]

Let me just stop you there. No, seriously. With the greatest respect, just because you don't known what you're talking about it doesn't mean it's not happening. I see the fear and exhaustion of overworked doctors who have just about been coping for years, and covid has pushed them beyond any reasonable point. Meanwhile the public clap for them in the streets like moronic seals... and then go and vote for parties that continue to defund the NHS.


You mean the fact people don't shout about doing something re flu? Levels of impact; it's bad, but clearly not considered bad enough to prioritise improvements vs other pressures.

Ok well you think I don't know what I'm talking about and I think you don't know what you're talking about. It's probably best we end it there as neither of us is going to convince the other and we will just go round in circles.

Be happy, your side won, my side lost, but in the end, we all lost regardless of your opinion and we will all pay for it for years to come, especially the young, they will suffer terribly, they already are and the old will get back on their cruise ships, enjoy their triple lock and the world will keep spinning.

 

[sploo]

The USA has proportionally the same number of deaths we have had.

Because they also had an inept populist moron in charge who ignored the advice of the medical community.

 

[alanpo68]

The USA has proportionally the same number of deaths we have had.

The UK also ignored the scientific advice. The main thing though is that the UK is leaving winter when people spend more time inside and coughs and colds are more prevalent. The USA has a disproportionate number of patients with COVID and people who are deemed as in a serious critical condition.

 

[sploo]

Ok well you think I don't know what I'm talking about and I think you don't know what you're talking about. It's probably best we end it there as neither of us is going to convince the other and we will just go round in circles.

I'm married to a doctor. I've seen the affect of the worsening conditions in the NHS for the last decade. I've watched it break some of her friends and colleagues; both from the same hospital, and others within the UK.

So, no, you don't know what you're talking about. Sorry to be so blunt, but the assertion that the NHS isn't overloaded in the winter is counter to any good evidence, and not least a bit insulting to the staff having to deal with it.

 

[alanpo68]

Ok well you think I don't know what I'm talking about and I think you don't know what you're talking about. It's probably best we end it there as neither of us is going to convince the other and we will just go round in circles.

Be happy, your side won, my side lost, but in the end, we all lost regardless of your opinion and we will all pay for it for years to come, especially the young, they will suffer terribly, they already are and the old will get back on their cruise ships, enjoy their triple lock and the world will keep spinning.

It almost sounds like you wish COVID has been allowed to run rampant just so your generation could have profited. Throughout reading your posts one thing shines through you are only interested in yourself.

 

[Rorschach]

I'm married to a doctor. I've seen the affect of the worsening conditions in the NHS for the last decade. I've watched it break some of her friends and colleagues; both from the same hospital, and others within the UK.

So, no, you don't know what you're talking about. Sorry to be so blunt, but the assertion that the NHS isn't overloaded in the winter is counter to any good evidence, and not least a bit insulting to the staff having to deal with it.

My problem with the NHS isn't the staff, it's the management and the way it's run, it's wholly unfit for purpose, I have said it many times it is in need for reform but until we stop treating it like the national religion and have a proper discussion it will never happen.
The NHS, so great that everyone in the world wants to copy it........... oh wait.

 

[Rorschach]

It almost sounds like you wish COVID has been allowed to run rampant just so your generation could have profited. Throughout reading your posts one thing shines through you are only interested in yourself.

I think you will find from my posts I am interested in the poor, the young and the working class, the ones who are suffering/will suffer worst and all of which are under represented here it seems.