Vaccination

[doctor Bob]

Have to agree. The difference between the first lockdown and now is very noticeable. Much more traffic and so many packed retail parks, full of people visiting shops that are now apparently 'essential' but weren't first time round. No wonder it's taking us so long to get a grip of it.

I’m in Hertfordshire/ Essex and it feels quiet

 

[Fergie 307]

Glad to hear it, Luton is very busy.

 

[Blackswanwood]

I am a little undecided about the vaccine.

Especially as they have just started saying that maybe you can get one from Pfizer first and then maybe whatever other one is in stock second.
This just seems too random, there are 3 different technologies in the vaccines and this is getting into pure experiment on the people territory.
They are not testing for antibodies before giving the jabs so some people's first *** is effectively the second dose if they have had covid then they will be effectively having a third.

I get the principle of herd immunity and all that but it is all a bit fishy.
I have been concerned since the government decided that they would just give drug companies "immunity " (sorry) from prosecution if anything goes wrong.
I do not believe Pfizer etc. would have dared to start mass vaccination if they could be prosecuted for any problem.

I am sure we will all eventually have to have it and my parents will be going soon.

The situation overall just seems really sketchy.

Ollie

Ollie, I just work on the basis that if people far more qualified to know say do it then I do it. Maybe all the antIvaxers will prove me wrong but It feels to me the balance of probabilities for a favourable outcome lies with what my doctor tells me rather than urban myth.

It is however rightly a matter of personal choice and in keeping with all internet debates the difference between me and others is they think they are right whereas I know I am

 

[Rorschach]

Roads are definitely busier than the first weeks of Lockdown 1 but similar to how they were once people had got more comfortable in Late April/early May last year. Shops are quiet, haven't queued at all again since early April. Plenty of people out on the parks and outdoor spaces but this is perfectly legal and good to see people getting fresh air and exercise when they can. Definitely more kids going to school as well, quite a few in fact. Aside from there being a slight morning rush hour again I can't really see much other difference compared to last year and I can't understand why so many keep moaning about it.

The same people moaning that this lockdown isn't "as good" as lockdown 1 and it needs to be stricter are also the people claiming that infections etc are going down because it is working and necessary. You can't have it both ways.

 

[profchris]

I am a little undecided about the vaccine.

Especially as they have just started saying that maybe you can get one from Pfizer first and then maybe whatever other one is in stock second.
This just seems too random, there are 3 different technologies in the vaccines and this is getting into pure experiment on the people territory.
They are not testing for antibodies before giving the jabs so some people's first *** is effectively the second dose if they have had covid then they will be effectively having a third.

I get the principle of herd immunity and all that but it is all a bit fishy.
I have been concerned since the government decided that they would just give drug companies "immunity " (sorry) from prosecution if anything goes wrong.
I do not believe Pfizer etc. would have dared to start mass vaccination if they could be prosecuted for any problem.

I am sure we will all eventually have to have it and my parents will be going soon.

The situation overall just seems really sketchy.

Ollie

I think the reason it seems sketchy is that the media reports you read or watch only focus on what they consider highlights. As an analogy think of the Repair Shop - you never see the full repair process, just selected bits.

All the vaccines do the same thing, they stimulate your immune system to produce antibodies. They do it in different ways. The important thing seems to be to nudge your immune system twice, and exactly how it's done each time doesn't matter.

To get a non-sketchy picture you have to go to sources like New Scientist. This will evaluate the bigger picture for you.

 

[RobinBHM]

The same people moaning that this lockdown isn't "as good" as lockdown 1 and it needs to be stricter are also the people claiming that infections etc are going down because it is working and necessary. You can't have it both ways

Basic strawman.
You are making an argument built on removing all detail and nuance.

 

[Rorschach]

And the award for the most predictable comment goes too.................

 

[Ollie78]

Ollie, I just work on the basis that if people far more qualified to know say do it then I do it. Maybe all the antIvaxers will prove me wrong but It feels to me the balance of probabilities for a favourable outcome lies with what my doctor tells me rather than urban myth.

It is however rightly a matter of personal choice and in keeping with all internet debates the difference between me and others is they think they are right whereas I know I am

I am not anti vax in general. However I worry that in this case its s bit of a rushed job in many ways.
People being more qualified to know does not necessarily mean they really know. At this point I don't think anyone knows
There is far from universal agreement about the strategy being employed.

 

[artie]

this is getting into pure experiment on the people territory.

You are beginning to get it.

In reality it's a two year clinical trial of an experimental biological agent which would not have met the definition of a vaccine in previous times.

But who knows, it may work.

 

[Ollie78]

I think the reason it seems sketchy is that the media reports you read or watch only focus on what they consider highlights. As an analogy think of the Repair Shop - you never see the full repair process, just selected bits.

All the vaccines do the same thing, they stimulate your immune system to produce antibodies. They do it in different ways. The important thing seems to be to nudge your immune system twice, and exactly how it's done each time doesn't matter.

To get a non-sketchy picture you have to go to sources like New Scientist. This will evaluate the bigger picture for you.

I agree, and try not to form my opinion on any single source especially sensationalist newspapers. The problem really stems from the fact that "we don't know" is a valid scientific position but not, it appears, a valid journalistic or political position.

Ollie

 

[Trainee neophyte]

I am a little undecided about the vaccine.

Especially as they have just started saying that maybe you can get one from Pfizer first and then maybe whatever other one is in stock second.
This just seems too random, there are 3 different technologies in the vaccines and this is getting into pure experiment on the people territory.
They are not testing for antibodies before giving the jabs so some people's first *** is effectively the second dose if they have had covid then they will be effectively having a third.

I get the principle of herd immunity and all that but it is all a bit fishy.
I have been concerned since the government decided that they would just give drug companies "immunity " (sorry) from prosecution if anything goes wrong.
I do not believe Pfizer etc. would have dared to start mass vaccination if they could be prosecuted for any problem.

I am sure we will all eventually have to have it and my parents will be going soon.

The situation overall just seems really sketchy.

Ollie

Firstly, the best possible situation for you is if everyone else has the vaccine, and you don't. It doesn't work if everyone thinks the same way, unfortunately.

Giving out a new, untested (in the traditional sense) vaccine indiscriminately will probably be fine. It's just a vaccine, after all. Nothing to worry about. Vaccines have been after round for 100 years or more. There have never been any major medical disasters relating to unexpected adverse outcomes, so why worry? What could possibly go wrong? ;-)

Everyone needs to do their own risk/benefit analysis: is fear of Covid19 greater than fear of a vaccine? That's the emotional decision to be made. Can you get any facts to help take the emotion out of the equation? I'd love to help, but there are so many facts kicking around that I don't know what is true and what isn't. Normal rules do not apply to this new disease.

For example, Robbin's pet lockdown works. We know it works, because there is zero influenza this year. Completely eradicated. Good work everyone. So why is the Coronavirus still charging around infecting everyone? Must be because they are failing to comply with the rules, obviously. But if they are not complying, why are they not catching the 'flu?

Baffling.

(3)

 

[RobinBHM]

I am not so sure, but we'll see. If they do the under 50's it certainly won't be a long term thing like flu jabs, very quickly it will become apparent that it's a waste of time and money and only the vulnerable need be vaccinated just like we have always done.

About 10% of those who got critically ill were under 50.

Waste of time and money eh?

 

[RobinBHM]

Firstly, the best possible situation for you is if everyone else has the vaccine, and you don't. It doesn't work if everyone thinks the same way, unfortunately.

Giving out a new, untested (in the traditional sense) vaccine indiscriminately will probably be fine. It's just a vaccine, after all. Nothing to worry about. Vaccines have been after round for 100 years or more. There have never been any major medical disasters relating to unexpected adverse outcomes, so why worry? What could possibly go wrong? ;-)

Everyone needs to do their own risk/benefit analysis: is fear of Covid19 greater than fear of a vaccine? That's the emotional decision to be made. Can you get any facts to help take the emotion out of the equation? I'd love to help, but there are so many facts kicking around that I don't know what is true and what isn't. Normal rules do not apply to this new disease.

For example, Robbin's pet lockdown works. We know it works, because there is zero influenza this year. Completely eradicated. Good work everyone. So why is the Coronavirus still charging around infecting everyone? Must be because they are failing to comply with the rules, obviously. But if they are not complying, why are they not catching the 'flu?

Baffling.

(3)

Will you please, for once in your life refrain from dishonest debating.
It is becoming tedious

 

[Trainee neophyte]

Will you please, for once in your life refrain from dishonest debating.
It is becoming tedious

I'm disappointed, I will admit. This is a happy thread, full of happy thoughts. I had hoped to give you some logical fallacies to get your teeth into, becauwe i know you collect them, but seems I may have reached a fallacy too far. There's just no pleasing some people.

Have a great weekend everyone. I'm off to play in the sunshine.

 

[RobinBHM]

I am sitting here thinking I've extended the lifespan of people who are already overdue to die by normal standards whilst pissing away 12 months of my prime and not being able to do

If you are thinking that, perhaps you might like to have a re think.

My niece has a work colleague in her 20s that has long Covid. Ongoing breathing and heart problems.

And she is seeing people hospitalised who are in their 30s, 40s, 50s, 60s.


Unfortunately you, like Rorschach and others are stuck in this over simplistic argument it's just people about to die who are dying......that's simply not the case.

Without restrictions there would be many many thousands of people who were perfectly healthy, dying or suffering long Covid.

 

[RobinBHM]

I'm disappointed, I will admit. This is a happy thread, full of happy thoughts. I had hoped to give you some logical fallacies to get your teeth into, becauwe i know you collect them, but seems I may have reached a fallacy too far. There's just no pleasing some people.

Have a great weekend everyone. I'm off to play in the sunshine.

Trolling, in other words.

 

[doctor Bob]

This thread is about the vaccine, why not pm each other.
Really good number yesterday

 

[gregmcateer]

I can think of one reason- if you just recovered from real covid. The vaccine is pointless.

Funnily enough, I thought the same. Until my lad, (20), tested positive. Slight cough, lost sense of smell, otherwise fine. When attended blood centre later, offering plasma(? I think) for therapeutic reasons, they tested and said thanks, but insufficient antibodies. Plus told him he should still socially distance and when vaccine ready, he will still need it for long term protection.

Don't ask me - just reporting what he was told.

 

[Rorschach]

About 10% of those who got critically ill were under 50.

Waste of time and money eh?

Yep

 

[Rorschach]

This thread is about the vaccine, why not pm each other.
Really good number yesterday

You can't morally pontificate in PM's though and show off to everyone how much better you are than those evil people who care about everyone in the country, not just the very old.

Very good numbers, great numbers, numbers always going biggly upwards, the best numbers. I miss those tweets already.