US Election November 5th

[NickDReed]

Answer the question Nick

Asked and answered, just not to your silly criteria asking to set aside any nuance.

I believe I have made myself fairly clear and stand by the content of my previous posts.

 

[DerekJohn]

I started reading this thread when the exit from Afghanistan was being discussed. The sad history of the USA's decline into extremist Christinanity (no spelling mistake there) prompted a retired old git (me) to spend 15 years reading history and philosophy to try to work out the answer to that decline and GB's colonialist history.
I concluded (after researching writing and publishing two books) that we the USA and the nascent League of Nations (now the UN) plus were responsible for most of the problems in the middle east (the ridiculously managed creation of the Palestinian state which became Israel when the Jewish Zionists won the 1949 civil war), 7 failed attempts attempts (by the British army) since 1820 to sort out Afghanistan and so much more that it makes my teeth hurt.
Then we had Thatcher's disastrous policies which apart from nationalising OUR water supply and electricity grid caused the 2007 financial crisis. Its all there in my two books on Amazon which few have read. My Ruskinweb blog has the the detail for those of you with the time and interest.
I gave up worrying about world news three years ago and found peace and happiness in my family, grand kids plus my lathe and wood work. It great to see so many here finding joy in making stuff out of wood.
Happy Christmas and peace to all - if only ;-}

 

[Jake]

Back to the election...

The Seltzer Iowa poll giving Harris a 3pt lead in Iowa is really encouraging. A very reliable state pollster, has called the last 4 or 5 right. Iowa is a state neither party has even rallied in, because it was assumed to be Trumpist beyond reach. If that's right, Trump is done for.

Not counting chickens but my bin day is Wednesday so the trash will be taken out whichever way it goes.

 

[sploo]

You still don't get it but never mind.

Seems like no one else did either so why not enlighten us as to your linguistic genius?

 

[danst96]

Not caught up with this thread so this may be completely out of context but see this video by CNN of all outlets highlighting Kamalas flip flopping messaging, one thing for one group, another for the next. It's why she scares me as potential leader of that country, nothing she says can be taken at fact value because she may say something different the next day.

https://www.cnn.com/2024/11/01/poli...sages-harris-campaign-israel-gaza-ebof-digvid

 

[Chris152]

nothing she says can be taken at fact value because she may say something different the next day.

https://www.cnn.com/2024/11/01/poli...sages-harris-campaign-israel-gaza-ebof-digvid

What she says is entirely consistent. The clip for a Jewish audience has been clipped to appeal to a Jewish audience and will be the work of campaign workers. Are you sure you've listened to the report?

 

[Terry - Somerset]

Not caught up with this thread so this may be completely out of context but see this video by CNN of all outlets highlighting Kamalas flip flopping messaging, one thing for one group, another for the next. It's why she scares me as potential leader of that country, nothing she says can be taken at fact value because she may say something different the next day.

https://www.cnn.com/2024/11/01/poli...sages-harris-campaign-israel-gaza-ebof-digvid

Elections have little to do with the merits of individual policies and the ability of contenders to lead effectively with integrity and the country's interest to the fore.

Flip-flopping, telling folk what they want to hear, egos dominating, half truths, selective statistics, image management, perceptions etc are electoral fuel. Basing voting intentions upon this may have little merit over "pin the tail on the donkey" game.

Sadly most folk - US or UK - are incapable of comprehending complex legal, economic and moral arguments. They are left with a simplistic choice:

• who best represents my views on the one or two issues that concern me
• who do I like - the best marketing campaign wins - adverts, image, rhetoric rule

I like to think I have some capacity to see through the B/S. Personally would support Kamala - the Donald is a truly unpleasant character. Irrespective of who goes past the post first, their actions will then be conditioned by a global or national reality.

Do I care who wins - yes. Have I any influence of the outcome - no.

 

[Phil Pascoe]

Sadly most folk - US or UK - are incapable of comprehending complex legal, economic and moral arguments. They are left with a simplistic choice:

• who best represents my views on the one or two issues that concern me
• who do I like - the best marketing campaign wins - adverts, image, rhetoric rule

Or do what most of us do in the UK with a ridiculous FPTP system, vote for the least worst.

 

[RobinBHM]

Trump administration negotiated a deal, and from what I can establish delivered on that deal while still in power

That deal led to the collapse of the Afghan govt, which prevented an orderly withdrawal

“Senior military officials in the United States have linked the collapse of the Afghan government and its security forces in August to former President Donald Trump’s deal with the Taliban in 2020 promising a complete withdrawal of US troops.

General Frank McKenzie, the head of Central Command, told the House Armed Services Committee on Wednesday that once the US troop presence was pushed below 2,500 as part of Washington’s bid to complete a total withdrawal by the end of August, the unravelling of the US-backed Afghan government accelerated”

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2021...anistan-collapse-rooted-in-trump-taliban-deal

 

[RobinBHM]

Or do what most of us do in the UK with a ridiculous FPTP system, vote for the least worst.

The last 14 years has not been the “least worst”

 

[Phil Pascoe]

nor were the 13 before.

 

[RobinBHM]

The result of the election probably wont be known for about 3 days after the 5th

They don’t start counting the postal votes until the 5th and they take time, also there will be recounts for close results.

I predict a Trump man child tantrum

 

[Phil Pascoe]

It'll probably take longer than that to count the votes in the destroyed ballot boxes and the votes of the dead. (I'd insert a laugh but my emojis have disappeared.)

 

[RobinBHM]

nor were the 13 before.

Evidence says they were:

lower pensioner poverty
lower child poverty
sure start
lowest NHS waiting times in history
GP appointments in 48 hours
more nurses
more teachers
more police

Don’t bother bleating about the global financial crisis….If you want to blame Labour for a global crisis, then Tories must be to blame for the global crisis in 2020.

 

[RobinBHM]

It'll probably take longer than that to count the votes in the destroyed ballot boxes and the votes of the dead. (I'd insert a laugh but my emojis have disappeared.)

Please could you refrain from posting Trump propaganda.

 

[RobinBHM]

I started reading this thread when the exit from Afghanistan was being discussed. The sad history of the USA's decline into extremist Christinanity (no spelling mistake there) prompted a retired old git (me) to spend 15 years reading history and philosophy to try to work out the answer to that decline and GB's colonialist history.
I concluded (after researching writing and publishing two books) that we the USA and the nascent League of Nations (now the UN) plus were responsible for most of the problems in the middle east (the ridiculously managed creation of the Palestinian state which became Israel when the Jewish Zionists won the 1949 civil war), 7 failed attempts attempts (by the British army) since 1820 to sort out Afghanistan and so much more that it makes my teeth hurt.
Then we had Thatcher's disastrous policies which apart from nationalising OUR water supply and electricity grid caused the 2007 financial crisis. Its all there in my two books on Amazon which few have read. My Ruskinweb blog has the the detail for those of you with the time and interest.
I gave up worrying about world news three years ago and found peace and happiness in my family, grand kids plus my lathe and wood work. It great to see so many here finding joy in making stuff out of wood.
Happy Christmas and peace to all - if only ;-}

Thank you, I shall check out your blog.

Just one comment: in regards to the global financial crisis, I agree Thatchers deregulation of banking exposed us to the sub prime mortgage / Lehman brothers collapse, but Labour didn’t strengthen banking regulation and are not entirely blameless

 

[NickDReed]

That deal led to the collapse of the Afghan govt, which prevented an orderly withdrawal

“Senior military officials in the United States have linked the collapse of the Afghan government and its security forces in August to former President Donald Trump’s deal with the Taliban in 2020 promising a complete withdrawal of US troops.

General Frank McKenzie, the head of Central Command, told the House Armed Services Committee on Wednesday that once the US troop presence was pushed below 2,500 as part of Washington’s bid to complete a total withdrawal by the end of August, the unravelling of the US-backed Afghan government accelerated”

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2021...anistan-collapse-rooted-in-trump-taliban-deal

The Trump administration agreement had them withdrawn by May 2021, Biden administration delayed the withdrawal until 11 Sept 2021.

The Trump deal may well have been flawed, but if that time line was followed the US and allies would have been withdrawn before the collapse of the Afghan gov in August. Once again, to suggest the deal is the single responsible cause for the mess that was the ultimate exit in August would be an inaccurate representation of the facts.

All of which has been detailed at length in previous posts.

 

[RobinBHM]

Once again, to suggest the deal is the single responsible cause for the mess that was the ultimate exit in August would be an inaccurate representation of the facts.

Why?

Trumps deal left an untenable position.

It wasn’t possible to leave in May, the Afghan govt wasn’t ready, the USA military wasn’t ready, allies like U.K. weren’t ready

would have been withdrawn before the collapse of the Afghan gov in August

Strawman, the Afghan govt began losing control the minute the deal was signed.


“There was no good way for the United States to exit the failed war in Afghanistan.

President Joe Biden inherited a strategically untenable position: a looming deadline for withdrawal, a deal the Taliban had not adhered to and too few U.S. troops on the ground to hold back Taliban advances. The only choices were to escalate, sending in thousands more U.S. troops to fight the Taliban, or complete the withdrawal.

The central problem behind the sudden collapse of the Afghan government isn’t that the United States withdrew too soon or too hastily, but that it waited too long. Once the U.S. government announced its intention to withdraw, Afghan government forces simply collapsed. The weakness and corruption in Afghanistan’s government has been apparent for years and the Taliban have been steadily gaining ground. The United States had long attempted to transition the war to a sustainable footing in which Afghan forces could hold their own against the Taliban with reduced U.S. involvement. This effort failed, and its failure had been apparent for years.”

https://www.cnas.org/publications/commentary/us-waited-too-long-to-withdraw-from-afghanistan

 

[Croolis]

 

[Terry - Somerset]

Why?

Trumps deal left an untenable position.

It wasn’t possible to leave in May, the Afghan govt wasn’t ready, the USA military wasn’t ready, allies like U.K. weren’t ready


Strawman, the Afghan govt began losing control the minute the deal was signed.


“There was no good way for the United States to exit the failed war in Afghanistan.

President Joe Biden inherited a strategically untenable position: a looming deadline for withdrawal, a deal the Taliban had not adhered to and too few U.S. troops on the ground to hold back Taliban advances. The only choices were to escalate, sending in thousands more U.S. troops to fight the Taliban, or complete the withdrawal.

The central problem behind the sudden collapse of the Afghan government isn’t that the United States withdrew too soon or too hastily, but that it waited too long. Once the U.S. government announced its intention to withdraw, Afghan government forces simply collapsed. The weakness and corruption in Afghanistan’s government has been apparent for years and the Taliban have been steadily gaining ground. The United States had long attempted to transition the war to a sustainable footing in which Afghan forces could hold their own against the Taliban with reduced U.S. involvement. This effort failed, and its failure had been apparent for years.”

https://www.cnas.org/publications/commentary/us-waited-too-long-to-withdraw-from-afghanistan

That the withdrawal was botched is beyond doubt. Whether due to operational incompetence or an ill thought through plan and agreement is almost academic.

The alternative would have been to extend the "occupation". This was a political non-starter in terms of economic cost and casualties. Even if Biden or Trump had delayed a few years I question what would have been gained.

An ineffective Afghan army would unlikely have performed any better. The Taliban are unlikely to have decided to go back to farming (or what ever). The only difference would be increased sunk costs.

The real error was going into Afghanistan in the first place. Sadly we cannot re-write history.