US Election November 5th

[Jake]

I agree the withdrawal was long overdue.
And as such I agree that in principle characterising it as a surrender is by no means justified, but some people do.

It is not being characterised that way by McMaster because it led to a US withdrawal per se, it was the weak terms of the agreement - Trump cutting the Afghan govement completely out of the agreement and just dealing bilaterally with the Taliban just set the conditions for collapse.

 

[Jake]

I'm not suggesting anyone is inventing anything. I have no idea what Gen Mcmaster is "like", I can't say our paths have ever crossed.

If you look at their history it's fairly clear that they have had a strained relationship

McMaster is a deeply conservative man, but a serious one, not a petty squabbler like Trump. There is nothing to suggest he would make up a view like for point scoring purposes which appears to be your insinuation.

 

[Jake]

My point is, framing this as a Trump administration disaster that a Biden administration can absolve themselves of because it suits your political alliances or personal feelings about an individual is misleading and disingenuous.

That's a nice strawman. I have repeatedly said that operationally the last step was not well handled. That doesn't change the fact the shape in which the US withdrew and (yes, approximate) timing was down to Trump's 'surrender agreement'.

I can't recall you accepting that a jot of responsibility for the outcome rests on Trump, so if I were you I would pause before calling anyone else disingenuous.

 

[NickDReed]

McMaster is a deeply conservative man, but a serious one, not a petty squabbler like Trump. There is nothing to suggest he would make up a view like for point scoring purposes which appears to be your insinuation.

I've never made an argument to suggest he has made up any view. Read my post, I'm suggesting their strained relationship is a possible reason he might describe a peace agreement as a surrender.

Do you see the withdrawal from Afghanistan as surrendering?

 

[NickDReed]

I can't recall you accepting that a jot of responsibility for the outcome rests on Trump, so if I were you I would pause before calling anyone else disingenuous.

The point of my post was not to shine a light on who's responsibility it was for the mess that was the withdrawal from Afghanistan. It was to point out that it cannot be placed soley at the feet of Trump just because that is convenient to your political leanings. And that if someone is to do that, they would be being disingenuous.

 

[Fergie 307]

It is not being characterised that way by McMaster because it led to a US withdrawal per se, it was the weak terms of the agreement - Trump cutting the Afghan govement completely out of the agreement and just dealing bilaterally with the Taliban just set the conditions for collapse.

Much the same as he may intend to do with Ukraine. "You can sit outside Mr Zelensky, while I sort this out with my mate Vlad".

 

[Jake]

The point of my post was not to shine a light on who's responsibility it was for the mess that was the withdrawal from Afghanistan. It was to point out that it cannot be placed soley at the feet of Trump just because that is convenient to your political leanings. And that if someone is to do that, they would be being disingenuous.

You jumped into a discussion in which someone said it was all down to Biden, so you can't wriggle out like that.

 

[Jameshow]

US politics and particularly the presidential elections are fun to follow.
People as so absolutely partisan that they are blind, the media bias is so utterly in your face it embarrassing.

What's sad is no one seems to realise that neither side give zero ***** about them.

Ditto UK politics!

 

[Jake]

I've never made an argument to suggest he has made up any view. Read my post, I'm suggesting their strained relationship is a possible reason he might describe a peace agreement as a surrender.

Do you see the withdrawal from Afghanistan as surrendering?

You are clearly suggesting he would dishonestly represent his view of the agreement because of supposed personal animus.

I do not think withdrawing per se was surrendering, but I think it's a pretty fair representation of the abject framework for withdrawal Trump agreed with Taliban and their allies.

 

[Jameshow]

I think it’s intellectually lazy to claim all that Farage is doing is exercising his right to free speech. Free speech is important but it comes with responsibilities (especially for politicians) to not promote hate and discrimination. (Sorry to disagree with you but I’m exercising my right to free speech ). It is of course why this forum has a rule that precludes

“posting content which promotes hatred of any race, ethnicity, ***, gender, or religion;”


You’ve obviously not read much about post- war Europe. Stalin had a plan to keep moving West. There was no opportunity to bring them into the fold.

Fine line between that and censorship....

 

[Blackswanwood]

Fine line between that and censorship....

When the seagulls follow the trawler, it is because they think sardines will be thrown into the sea.

 

[NickDReed]

You jumped into a discussion in which someone said it was all down to Biden, so you can't wriggle out like that.

Are you not doing exactly the same thing by suggesting it is all down to Trump?

I'm not wriggling out of anything, I stand by everything I have said. The point at which I jumped in was when someone had suggested it was all Trumps fault.

My point was that the Biden administration has to burden a level of responsibility, to suggest otherwise is misleading. Conversely, the samp would apply to the Trump administration.

 

[NickDReed]

You are clearly suggesting he would dishonestly represent his view of the agreement because of supposed personal animus.

I do not think withdrawing per se was surrendering, but I think it's a pretty fair representation of the abject framework for withdrawal Trump agreed with Taliban and their allies.

I'm suggesting referring to a peace agreement as a surrender, is distorting facts.

 

[Stuart M]

The point of my post was not to shine a light on who's responsibility it was for the mess that was the withdrawal from Afghanistan. It was to point out that it cannot be placed soley at the feet of Trump just because that is convenient to your political leanings. And that if someone is to do that, they would be being disingenuous.

So it's agreed that we can place some blame on Trump, but if it's more than a certain percentage, then that's not fair because of "political leanings"?

What percentage is fair, and how did you work that out? At what percentage can we use "You just hate Trump" as a legitimate defence of the great man?

 

[sploo]

I'm sorry the subtlety eluded you.

I didn't know you could subtly misunderstand a word

 

[Jake]

Much the same as he may intend to do with Ukraine. "You can sit outside Mr Zelensky, while I sort this out with my mate Vlad".

Exactly what he would do - and he's said as much.

 

[NickDReed]

That's not what

So it's agreed that we can place some blame on Trump, but if it's more than a certain percentage, then that's not fair because of "political leanings"?

I said to suggest blame can or should only be apportioned to one administration on this topic is misleading.

Nothing about percentages or fairness so I'm unclear where you've got that from.

 

[Jake]

I'm suggesting referring to a peace agreement as a surrender, is distorting facts.

Why do you say that? 'Peace agreements' often reflect one side surrendering.

 

[Jake]

Are you not doing exactly the same thing by suggesting it is all down to Trump?

I'm not wriggling out of anything, I stand by everything I have said. The point at which I jumped in was when someone had suggested it was all Trumps fault.

I was responding to Spectric saying Biden was responsible for a cowardly surrender in Afghanistan and that Harris would be no better.

Do you think my response was more accurate or less accurate than Spectric's version of events (setting aside niggly nuances and just going binary), which is closer to the truth of it?

 

[NickDReed]

Why do you say that? 'Peace agreements' often reflect one side surrendering.

Surrender often results in peace agreements, but peace agreements are not always a result of a surrender. It is an important distinction to make.