US Election November 5th

[Delaney]

They are entitled to their views and may even be right.

Nonetheless Trump is bonkers, morally bankrupt, a bully, racist, xenophobic, a self obsessed egotist etc. Whether so unpleasant personality should be denied the presidency is debatable.

Personally I would be inclined to vote for someone who would likely govern with far greater humanity, and sacrifice some possible economic benefit.

Did you get all your ‘buzz words’ out Terry?

Trump has many failures and egregious personality traits but be generally gets the big calls right.
He is a walking contradiction.
I’m happy to overlook the noise and focus on the signal.

Lot’s of black, hispanics and asian voters love Trump. He’s more popular with them than any previous republican. So you can call him a racist and such but it’s all hot air.

 

[Delaney]

We’ve had this discussion before and clearly we see the world differently.

You’d like to leave Ukraine to whatever Putin wants to do with it and I believe in the not too distant future that would lead to even worse bloodshed and a bigger threat to world security.

I agree that the facts speak for themselves - if you look back at the previous discussion you’ll see the rationale for my view and that it’s been arrived at by a bit more effort than just watching 5 minutes of the BBC!

I’ve come to my conclusion based on the facts, that is why I think the way I do. I’m not interested in emotion because I’m a realist.

I feel deeply sorry for Ukraine, as I feel deeply sorry for countries orbiting the US who will never be allowed an economy that would in any way interfere with the US. This is the sad reality of all satelite countries around super powers.
If you think that in this case we should go to war with Russia to stop them exerting control over a satellite state, in their area of influence (which would be rank hypocrisy as a motivation), then let us be honest about it.
Let’s not pretend it’s about freedom and western values and standing up for the Ukrainian’s because we have no idea what they want. We only get to hear from them, what the west wants us to hear and any counter factual, will be dismissed as Russian propaganda. Which is how
propaganda works.

Before Nato got a hard on for Ukraine (likely for it’s fertile land, resources and ability to weaken Russian defences), 1 million more Ukrainians were alive, families in tact and they had homes. Sure the liberal elite in Ukraine wanted to join the EU and Nato, sure they hated Russia but as sad as it is, that doesn’t matter. There were people in Cuba who hated the US and wanted to align with Russia; do you think the US cared about that? I mean come on!

The Russian’s are not going to stop becuase they will not let Nato put missiles on their border and have access to Russia through Ukraine.
Russia has been invaded 3 x through Ukraine, it is where they are most vulnerable. That is why they are not going to let it fall into NATO hands and they will do whatever it takes to stop that and they can.
This is the cold hard truth.

So how many more Europeans do you want to die? Because that is all that is going to happen.
We are not going to give Putin a bloody nose, we are not going to ‘show him’, we are just going to cheer on the death and misery of millions of europeans for no useful outcome.

These are the facts. Everything else is just noise.

 

[Blackswanwood]

I’ve come to my conclusion based on the facts, that is why I think the way I do. I’m not interested in emotion because I’m a realist.

I feel deeply sorry for Ukraine, as I feel deeply sorry for countries orbiting the US who will never be allowed an economy that would in any way interfere with the US. This is the sad reality of all satelite countries around super powers.
If you think that in this case we should go to war with Russia to stop them exerting control over a satellite state, in their area of influence (which would be rank hypocrisy as a motivation), then let us be honest about it.
Let’s not pretend it’s about freedom and western values and standing up for the Ukrainian’s because we have no idea what they want. We only get to hear from them, what the west wants us to hear and any counter factual, will be dismissed as Russian propaganda. Which is how
propaganda works.

Before Nato got a hard on for Ukraine (likely for it’s fertile land, resources and ability to weaken Russian defences), 1 million more Ukrainians were alive, families in tact and they had homes. Sure the liberal elite in Ukraine wanted to join the EU and Nato, sure they hated Russia but as sad as it is, that doesn’t matter. There were people in Cuba who hated the US and wanted to align with Russia; do you think the US cared about that? I mean come on!

The Russian’s are not going to stop becuase they will not let Nato put missiles on their border and have access to Russia through Ukraine.
Russia has been invaded 3 x through Ukraine, it is where they are most vulnerable. That is why they are not going to let it fall into NATO hands and they will do whatever it takes to stop that and they can.
This is the cold hard truth.

So how many more Europeans do you want to die? Because that is all that is going to happen.
We are not going to give Putin a bloody nose, we are not going to ‘show him’, we are just going to cheer on the death and misery of millions of europeans for no useful outcome.

These are the facts. Everything else is just noise.

We’ve discussed all this before. My views are unchanged since then so I won’t repeat them.

It’s worth noting though that just because Jeffrey Sachs said it on YouTube doesn’t necessarily make it “the facts”.

Let’s just agree to differ.

 

[Delaney]

We’ve discussed all this before. My views are unchanged since then so I won’t repeat them.

It’s worth noting though that just because Jeffrey Sachs said it on YouTube doesn’t necessarily make it “the facts”.

Let’s just agree to differ.

My argument isn’t based on Jeffery Sachs, it's based on facts. There are countless more people on youtube who explain them as well. That video is just one example which neatly sums up the key points.
The reason why we keep going over this is because you keep misrepresenting the facts and my position.

Moving on.

 

[Fergie 307]

I’ve come to my conclusion based on the facts, that is why I think the way I do. I’m not interested in emotion because I’m a realist.

I feel deeply sorry for Ukraine, as I feel deeply sorry for countries orbiting the US who will never be allowed an economy that would in any way interfere with the US. This is the sad reality of all satelite countries around super powers.
If you think that in this case we should go to war with Russia to stop them exerting control over a satellite state, in their area of influence (which would be rank hypocrisy as a motivation), then let us be honest about it.
Let’s not pretend it’s about freedom and western values and standing up for the Ukrainian’s because we have no idea what they want. We only get to hear from them, what the west wants us to hear and any counter factual, will be dismissed as Russian propaganda. Which is how
propaganda works.

Before Nato got a hard on for Ukraine (likely for it’s fertile land, resources and ability to weaken Russian defences), 1 million more Ukrainians were alive, families in tact and they had homes. Sure the liberal elite in Ukraine wanted to join the EU and Nato, sure they hated Russia but as sad as it is, that doesn’t matter. There were people in Cuba who hated the US and wanted to align with Russia; do you think the US cared about that? I mean come on!

The Russian’s are not going to stop becuase they will not let Nato put missiles on their border and have access to Russia through Ukraine.
Russia has been invaded 3 x through Ukraine, it is where they are most vulnerable. That is why they are not going to let it fall into NATO hands and they will do whatever it takes to stop that and they can.
This is the cold hard truth.

So how many more Europeans do you want to die? Because that is all that is going to happen.
We are not going to give Putin a bloody nose, we are not going to ‘show him’, we are just going to cheer on the death and misery of millions of europeans for no useful outcome.

These are the facts. Everything else is just noise.

Have you spoken to Ukrainians about this?
I have spoken to quite a few who have come here. Their view is that they were please to be free of Russian influence, and saw joining the EU, and NATO as a natural progression to integrating with the neighbours. They just wanted to be left alone to make their own way in the world.
Those I have spoken to could by no means be viewed as members of a "liberal elite" (and how revealing it is that you should choose such an expression, straight from the Russian propaganda script).
Of course I suppose you will argue that any who have sought refuge in the UK must have been indoctrinated or brainwashed in some way.
You say Putin will not allow Ukraine to join NATO. What business is it of his what any other sovereign state choses to do? There have been NATO missiles pointed in his direction for years, that is a pretty lame excuse.
NATO is a purely defensive organisation, they haven't invaded anyone that I can recall.
Putin by contrast has made rather a habit of it.
So you are the one happily guzzling down Russian propaganda.
Was the recent strike at an arms depot within Russia western propaganda? Maybe it was just a fireworks display put on by Putin for the amusement of the locals.
And your suggestion in a previous post that Putin is happy for Ukrainian forces to occupy Russia soil in the Kursk region, so they can better be "shredded" is positively laughable.
What's gone wrong there, fuse blown in the shredder?

You need to wake up to some facts yourself.

 

[Delaney]

Have you spoken to Ukrainians about this?
I have spoken to quite a few who have come here. Their view is that they were please to be free of Russian influence, and saw joining the EU, and NATO as a natural progression to integrating with the neighbours. They just wanted to be left alone to make their own way in the world. Those I have spoken to could by no means be viewed as members of a "liberal elite" ( and what a revealing expression that is ).
Of course I suppose you will argue that any who have sought refuge in the UK must have been indoctrinated or brainwashed in some way.
You say Putin will not allow Ukraine to join NATO. What business is it of his what any other sovereign state choses to do? There have been NATO missiles pointed in his direction for years, that is a pretty lame excuse.
NATO is a purely defensive organisation, they haven't invaded anyone that I can recall.
Putin by contrast has made rather a habit of it.
So you are the one happily guzzling down Russian propaganda.
Was the recent strike at an arms depot within Russia western propaganda? Maybe it was just a fireworks display put on by Putin for the amusement of the locals.
And your suggestion in a previous post that Putin is happy for Ukrainian forces to occupy Russia soil in the Kursk region, so they can better be "shredded" is positively laughable.
What's gone wrong there, fuse blown in the shredder?

You need to wake up to some facts yourself.

How you can read what I’ve said and then write this stuff is beyond me.

I’m not sure what you think is “revealing” about the reality that liberal elites in Ukraine look westward; It’s just a fact.
Of course some people in Ukraine want to join the EU. That would be true of any population in Europe, including Russia!
Those people aren’t in control of the country and we actually don’t know how big they are in the general population. We do not have that data and your anecdotal polling, is just that.
That doesn’t mean they have to be a minority or a majority because frankly it’s irrelevant to the conflict. The people who ultimately decide the fate of Ukraine, is a hand full of people in the US and Russia.
That is the reality, regardless of how we feel about that.

You say on one hand ‘they want to be left alone’ but then you seem very keen for us to meddle in their affairs. Which one is it?

Nato might be a ‘defence’ pact between nations but it is also used by the likes of the US as an umbrella to house their missile systems. Nato is effectively the US. Unless you didn’t know that?

I’ve never once defended Putin. I have constantly said that Russia is not somewhete I would choose to live, nor a system I believe in.
No systems are perfect but the western system is the best we have and I support it.
What you have to come to terms with, is reality. Ukraine borders Russia, Russia is a suer power. You can be as upset about that as you want but that is the reality.

I would prefer that every Ukrainian who wants to live in the west, leaves Ukraine and comes and lives with us. That is the only real solution Ukrainians have, who don’t want to live in the sphere of Russian influence.
You can instead gin up conflict and watch the entire country be annihilated, if that is what you think is best.

When you start dealing with reality and not hysterical fever dreams, this will make more sense and less people are going to die.
Russia will if pushed, annihilate Ukraine. They have said so and from their actions I believe them.

Now what?

P.s please provide the quote where I said Ukrainians will get ‘shredded’.
I actually care a lot about the lives of Europeans, more so than those who recklessly want them sacrificed on the alter of ‘punching Putler’.

 

[Fergie 307]

"They seem to be keen for us to meddle in their affairs".
Not sure quite what you mean by that.
At the moment they are keen to accept our help in supplying the means to fight off a completely unwarranted invasion of their country.
Much as the Soviet Union were happy to accept vast quantities of war materiel from the West to fight off the Nazis.
Perhaps the Soviets should have just fled to the East and let Hitler get on with it, would certainly have saved a lot of lives.
Presumably in your view if Putin were to attack Poland for example, then all Poles should just shrug their shoulders and leave?
Where, if anywhere, would you think that process ought to stop? Germany, France, the channel?
I really have never read such utter boll***s.

 

[spanner48]

How you can read what I’ve said and then write this stuff is beyond me.

I’m not sure what you think is “revealing” about the reality that liberal elites in Ukraine look westward; It’s just a fact.
Of course some people in Ukraine want to join the EU. That would be true of any population in Europe, including Russia!
Those people aren’t in control of the country and we actually don’t know how big they are in the general population. We do not have that data and your anecdotal polling, is just that.
That doesn’t mean they have to be a minority or a majority because frankly it’s irrelevant to the conflict. The people who ultimately decide the fate of Ukraine, is a hand full of people in the US and Russia.
That is the reality, regardless of how we feel about that.

You say on one hand ‘they want to be left alone’ but then you seem very keen for us to meddle in their affairs. Which one is it?

Nato might be a ‘defence’ pact between nations but it is also used by the likes of the US as an umbrella to house their missile systems. Nato is effectively the US. Unless you didn’t know that?

I’ve never once defended Putin. I have constantly said that Russia is not somewhete I would choose to live, nor a system I believe in.
No systems are perfect but the western system is the best we have and I support it.
What you have to come to terms with, is reality. Ukraine borders Russia, Russia is a suer power. You can be as upset about that as you want but that is the reality.

I would prefer that every Ukrainian who wants to live in the west, leaves Ukraine and comes and lives with us. That is the only real solution Ukrainians have, who don’t want to live in the sphere of Russian influence.
You can instead gin up conflict and watch the entire country be annihilated, if that is what you think is best.

When you start dealing with reality and not hysterical fever dreams, this will make more sense and less people are going to die.
Russia will if pushed, annihilate Ukraine. They have said so and from their actions I believe them.

Now what?

P.s please provide the quote where I said Ukrainians will get ‘shredded’.
I actually care a lot about the lives of Europeans, more so than those who recklessly want them sacrificed on the alter of ‘punching Putler’.

"I would prefer that every Ukrainian who wants to live in the west, leaves Ukraine and comes and lives with us." ??? Sounds eerily like Hitler with Poland . . . .

 

[selectortone]

Those I have spoken to could by no means be viewed as members of a "liberal elite" (and how revealing it is that you should choose such an expression, straight from the Russian propaganda script).

Indeed revealing.

 

[Blackswanwood]

The reason why we keep going over this is because you keep misrepresenting the facts …

Moving on.

Strangely I could have said the same thing in my post …

 

[Terry - Somerset]

Defining countries, borders, sovereignty etc relies upon the application of international law which was agreed in principle under the United Nations Charter 1945.

All Members shall refrain in their international relations from the threat or use of force against the territorial integrity or political independence of any state, or in any other manner inconsistent with the Purposes of the United Nations.

There are a limited number of disputed borders across the globe of which Crimea (unsurprisingly) is one. It seems possible Eastern Ukraine will be added to that list.

Many borders were imposed without regard for religious, tribal, ethnic considerations - imperial or colonial powers dividing up the spoils. Particularly evident in the Middle East and Africa.

AIUI the treaty between Ukraine and Russia, signed in 1997 fixed the principle of strategic partnership, recognition of the inviolability of existing borders, and respect for territorial integrity.

The invasion by Russia of Crimea and now Ukraine violated this agreement. Whether the agreed borders made sense is a separate issue - Crimea and Donbas were heavily associated with Russian culture, ethnicity and language etc.

There is no sound legal basis for the invasion of Ukraine - it is more likely driven by:

• acquisition (theft) of the resources Ukraine has in abundance
• strategic location - particularly Crimea with dominant Black Sea access
• the steady encroachment of NATO and EU on to territory which was previously part of the wider Soviet Union

The failure to respond to the invasion of Crimea a decade ago simply encouraged Putin to believe he could act with impunity. Ukraine is the last remaining large country bordering Russia yet to become a NATO member - Finland and Sweden having joined in the last year.

 

[Blackswanwood]

The reason why we keep going over this is because you keep misrepresenting the facts and my position.

I think you’ve confused “misrepresenting the facts” with “having a different opinion”.

 

[Delaney]

"They seem to be keen for us to meddle in their affairs".
Not sure quite what you mean by that.
At the moment they are keen to accept our help in supplying the means to fight off a completely unwarranted invasion of their country.
Much as the Soviet Union were happy to accept vast quantities of war materiel from the West to fight off the Nazis.
Perhaps the Soviets should have just fled to the East and let Hitler get on with it, would certainly have saved a lot of lives.
Presumably in your view if Putin were to attack Poland for example, then all Poles should just shrug their shoulders and leave?
Where, if anywhere, would you think that process ought to stop? Germany, France, the channel?
I really have never read such utter boll***s.

I’m sorry but this isn’t a rational argument. Putin is not Hitler. We know this because he’s been in power for roughly 20 years and hasn’t invaded Poland, so let’s park that talking point.
I can tell you who has invaded Syria, Iraq, Libya, Afghanistan and started a proxy war with Russia via Ukraine. Yes you've guessed it, Nato countries.
Does that make us Hitler, by your metric? Ok so let’s talk sensibly.

Russia had said repeatedly to the west that Ukraine is a red line. You can think what you want about that and it's fair to say “why shoudl russia have control over Ukraine” and I understand that, I wouldn’t want it to be and the world is full of unfair situations; but the US has control over every country in its hemisphere. This is just the reality of living next to a super power. I’m not trying to make an emotional argument here, this a purely factual matter of reality, regardless of what I think.

If you can't understand what that means, then there’s no discussion to be had because you're not capable of having one.

The big irony here and the sad part of it, is that Russia does not have the demographics to conquer Ukraine, and run it. That is why it DID NOT invaded it post the USSR collapse. In a decade or two Russia will have no viable future due to demographic decline. The US and the EU know this, so if they wanted Ukraine and to take it without firing a shot, they just have to wait 20-50 years.
Russia wants startegic parts of Ukraine for its defence. Ukraine is the open straights that Russia can be invaded by from the west. Russia wants to control that area (by force if IT HAS TO), in order to protect its borders.
Russia in effect wants to wall itself off from the west and die but whilst it has the chance, it will put its fortifications in place, to potect itsef as it becomes weaker.

If all of this ie news to you, that’s becuase you live in the west and you;re deliberatly being kept in the dark and fed sh*t. It;s called propaganda.

If you can think rationally, then ask yourself, why did't Russia invade Ukrain over th elast 30 years? Why now, when the US and the EU were offering Nato alliance with Ukraine. Can you not make that connection?