US Election November 5th

[Terry - Somerset]

Depends on what you think socialism is.
You seem to be spooking yourself with some particular definition of your own making! A lot of people do this - it saves having to think about things.

Examples? What did you have in mind?

An agreed definition of those concepts we use so loosely would be useful - although sadly I suspect we all put our own spin on them. As a starter for 10 based on simple Google search:

Capitalism - an economic and political system in which a country's trade and industry are controlled by private owners for profit.

Socialism - a political and economic theory of social organization which advocates that the means of production, distribution, and exchange should be owned or regulated by the community as a whole.

Communism - a theory or system of social organization in which all property is owned by the community and each person contributes and receives according to their ability and needs.

I suspect subtleties related to the definition of communism and socialism are frequently lost.

It also seems that successful economic or political regimes benefit from a balance of concepts - those skewed towards any one extreme frequently fail as dogma seeks to dominate basic human behaviours.

 

[Spectric]

Probably the biggest threat to world stability was when the Soviet Union broke up leaving only the USA as the true remaining superpower.

Don't overlook China as they will be taking over from america as the worlds super power and it will only be a mater of time before the dollar is replaced by the yuan as the global currency. China is now running whilst the west is just crawling with broken legs and heavily dependant on China for so much we have probably lost the count.

The UK has lost all credability by supporting genocide in Gaza, we do not have clear definions when it comes to good and bad leaders as it depends on the situation on the day which is wrong. We removed Hitler, Bin Laden and Saddam yet are allowing netty nu nu to exterminate the palestinians and our Pm is supporting him so how can we say anything when it comes to China, Putin or anything else that fails to meet our expectations.

The West has consistently failed to properly engage with Russia, albeit diminished by the break up of the old Soviet Union, still aspire to engage on the global political stage.

The americans by alienating the "communist" and driving the cold war for decades was good for business when it came to the defence companies securing vast amounts of government cash to develope the next best thing and this mentality continues, to ensure more munitions are purchased you need to push the american government to get involved in any and all conflicts to consume current stockpiles, in reality vast amounts of american wealth is blood money.

The solution is not that difficult if you have the willpower and believe we are all equal on having to share this planet, it is called talking and diplomacy where just like on these forums we accept other peoples views we need to do the same on a bigger scale and start thinking as one rather than looking for division.

 

[Spectric]

I suspect subtleties related to the definition of communism and socialism are frequently lost.

It could be said that socialism is the road to communism or maybe just the middle step from capitalism to communism !

If everyone is equally wealthy then where is the motivation to progress, in socialism this fails but then when the people are all working for say the PRC that gives them back the motivation but it really depends upon social attitude, something we are failing with in the UK because even when working hard and trying your best you just end up treading water.

 

[Jacob]

An agreed definition of those concepts we use so loosely would be useful - although sadly I suspect we all put our own spin on them.

Nothing sad about that, they are not carved in stone, more just loose general descriptions.

As a starter for 10 based on simple Google search:

Capitalism - an economic and political system in which a country's trade and industry are controlled by private owners for profit.

Socialism - a political and economic theory of social organization which advocates that the means of production, distribution, and exchange should be owned or regulated by the community as a whole.

Very much what we have here. Some state ownership, a lot of private enterprise, lots of control and regulation by the state. We are all socialists now.

Communism - a theory or system of social organization in which all property is owned by the community and each person contributes and receives according to their ability and needs.

I suspect subtleties related to the definition of communism and socialism are frequently lost.

Capitalism is also a very vague term.
At one end it's merely a normal method for getting a group enterprise together, money, people, capital etc for a project, hopefully profitable and worthwhile.
At the other a completely crackpot ideology that unrestrained profiteering somehow benefits everybody, via the very childish "trickle down theory".
It doesn't work, never has, never will and ends up with slavery, banana republics etc. or more likely an economic doldrum with limited activity and endless disputes.

It also seems that successful economic or political regimes benefit from a balance of concepts - those skewed towards any one extreme frequently fail as dogma seeks to dominate basic human behaviours.

I agree. We've had 45 years of watered-down ideological capitalism with diminished state, low taxation, de regulation, austerity, low spending on public services.
It has been an abject failure. with so much damage done it could take a generation to rectify. Not to mention massive tax rises.
Traditional capitalism, as per "post war consensus" 30 years was less damaging, as the theory then was to merely do as little as possible, only what was necessary, hence the name "conservatism". Starmer seems to be bringing back something very similar.

 

[Chris152]

If everyone is equally wealthy then where is the motivation to progress

I think one of the biggest errors many in the west make is assuming 'progress', success or whatever is related to income, wealth and acquisition of material goods. There are far better ways to achieve progress/ success, for both the individual and society.

 

[Jacob]

It could be said that socialism is the road to communism or maybe just the middle step from capitalism to communism !

No it could not. Do you really think the NHS and welfare state are steps towards communism?

If everyone is equally wealthy then where is the motivation to progress,

Nobody proposes "equal wealth". Rather a steady flow of redistribution much like we have now, but more so as and when necessary. There is no divine right to excess wealth.
Even if possible why on earth would it demotivate people looking for progress? Quite the opposite - it could liberate people to be more creative, imaginative etc.

.... we are failing with in the UK because even when working hard and trying your best you just end up treading water.

I agree. It's a waste of talent and human "capital" or potential.

 

[Phil Pascoe]

Nobody proposes "equal wealth". Rather a steady flow of redistribution much like we have now, but more so as and when necessary. There is no divine right to excess wealth.
Even if possible why on earth would it demotivate people looking for progress? Quite the opposite - it could liberate people to be more creative, imaginative etc.

.... we are failing with in the UK because even when working hard and trying your best you just end up treading water.

I agree. It's a waste of talent and human "capital" or potential.
...........................................................................................................................................................
It must be hard work, contradicting yourself twice in such a short post.

 

[Spectric]

I think one of the biggest errors many in the west make is assuming 'progress', success or whatever is related to income, wealth and acquisition of material goods. There are far better ways to achieve progress/ success, for both the individual and society.

Knowledge and personel achievement spring to mind.

 

[Phil Pascoe]

Personal?

 

[Spectric]

Yes, you know you are onto a good thing when achieving something becomes more important than any financial gain and having these targets is good for an enjoyable life even if they cause periods of frustration. Most people can earn a bob or two but somethings require a skill and when achieved are a better reward than money.

 

[spanner48]

The EU has been expanding Eastward for the past two decades or more and has continually poked and provoked the Russian Bear and this is the result.
I don't agree with what the Russians have done by any stretch of the imagination nor do I fall for all the propaganda put out by the West.

Given the way Russia has been treated since their revolution in 1917, they have been treated as public enemy number one by the West.
Historians will tell you that the UK could have granted the Romanovs asylum at the time of the revolution but they refused to in case it encouraged a revolution here in the UK so they hung the Romanovs out to dry. That's British politics for you.

The 'allies' would have been far happier if Hitler had been successful and destroyed the state of Russia after Germany signed their peace pact with them so it's little wonder that the Russians do not trust the West.
The Americans have always spent vast sums undermining anything Russian as we saw in Afghanistan. The Americans and the West fear communism so much and I've no doubt that the CIA was behind the bringing down of the legitimate Ukraine government which was sympathetic to the Russians at the time so let's not overlook the part that the USA and West has played in European politics.

You only have to look to the Middle East to see the undermining that the USA/West was doing during the Arab Spring so I tend not to fall for the propaganda garbage that the West puts out. As far as I'm concerned there's not much difference between Russia and the USA. They both have agendas.

Soviet apologism . . .

 

[Spectric]

You do realise that having such a hard left dictator in the form of starmer will take us towards a socialist society, an early step in the road to communism. The only saving grace is that he does not have what it takes to force such change yet.

 

[Rhossydd]

a hard left dictator in the form of starmer

You really have lost the plot if you think Starmer is 'hard left'.

 

[Cobbs]

You do realise that having such a hard left dictator in the form of starmer will take us towards a socialist society, an early step in the road to communism. The only saving grace is that he does not have what it takes to force such change yet.

Dictator? Really? Grow up.

 

[Rhossydd]

Soviet apologism . . .

Quite, 100% of comments here by that account are political right wing posts, not a single comment on workshops or tools.
Maybe the mods ought to take a look at what benefit this account brings to the forum.

 

[ey_tony]

Quite, 100% of comments here by that account are political right wing posts, not a single comment on workshops or tools.
Maybe the mods ought to take a look at what benefit this account brings to the forum.

Point to these mythical right wing posts or is it because I don't agree with the left wing nonsense that's posted that you are unhappy?
I'm neither left nor right wing, I just don't subscribe to left wing tripe. That doesn't make me right wing unless one is prejudiced.

 

[ey_tony]

Soviet apologism . . .

If you try reading up on history and stop swallowing Western propaganda without question you might learn something!

 

[Jacob]

.....I just don't subscribe to left wing tripe. That doesn't make me right wing .....

Yes it does. Unless you've discovered another niche - or does it exist already and have a name?
How do you feel about right-wing tripe?

 

[Jacob]

Dictator? Really? Grow up.

Authoritarian without a doubt. Not a socialist - I doubt he could even say the word without tight lipped facial contortions!
The party could have more control if they wished to, but face it - he has purged the left in a very old fashioned dictatorial manner.
No night of long knives but more a campaign of lies and misinformation.

 

[ey_tony]

Yes it does. Unless you've discovered another niche - or does it exist already and have a name?

Nonsense. Common sense doesn't need right or left wing politics for it to work.
The same as you don't need to follow a religion to be a decent person. You can be a perfectly good/decent person without subscribing to any religion.

I'm a Capitalist but that doesn't mean I necessarily reject all socialist values nor does it mean that adopt right wing values.
The Left wing simply doesn't have the monopoly of moral/decent behaviour toward one's fellow man.