US Election November 5th

[Jacob]

Nonsense. Common sense doesn't need right or left wing politics for it to work.
The same as you don't need to follow a religion to be a decent person. You can be a perfectly good/decent person without subscribing to any religion.

I'm a Capitalist but that doesn't mean I necessarily reject all socialist values nor does it mean that adopt right wing values.
The Left wing simply doesn't have the monopoly of moral/decent behaviour toward one's fellow man.

Are you a "capitalist" in the ideological sense - that unrestrained free-market business is best for everybody in the long run by virtue of the trickle down effect?
What do you think of this chap:

 

[Blackswanwood]

I just don't get why people have a label put on each other such as right/left wing, capitalist or socialist.

My belief is that many people pick elements from across the political spectrum of ideas that they like/dislike and actually none of the labels fit all of the time.

Jacob may be the only exception (Said as a mark of respect for his tenacity and consistency!)

 

[paulrbarnard]

Are you a "capitalist" in the ideological sense - that unrestrained free-market business is best for everybody in the long run by virtue of the trickle down effect?
What do you think of this chap:

View attachment 185856

All the Murphy model does is move more money into corporations, away from people who actually earn it. The issue again here is the view that people who earn money are wealthy. Baring a very small fraction of a percent that simply isn’t true. I earn a high salary and pay a lot of tax through PAYE. By average standards I have a high disposable income, which I dispose of. I am far from wealthy.
The actual solution is to tax corporations and move the money from there back into circulation.

 

[ey_tony]

Are you a "capitalist" in the ideological sense - that unrestrained free-market business is best for everybody in the long run by virtue of the trickle down effect?
What do you think of this chap:

View attachment 185856

If you and others support this chap's views then you are quite welcome to redistribute some of your wealth if you choose to, I certainly won't object but you shouldn't expect others to have the same views.

I am a Capitalist in the sense that I believe in meritocracy and for those who are unable to support themselves through no fault of their own, we have a duty to support them until such times that they may or may not be able to do that for themselves.

What I don't subscribe to is the entitlement to take away part of another person's earnings and redistribute them unless the earnings are as a direct result of taxpayers funding those jobs.
We should protect and care for the vulnerable members of our society but we should also condemn those who would abuse the system by choosing a benefits lifestyle. That shouldn't be an option.
We should encourage and incentivise people to improve their living standards and refrain from paying them not to work. Work is an important part of a person's wellbeing.

It's not the fault of the successful that others are not...that's just how life is!
Even if you shared the entire wealth of the country equally between every citizen, within 2 years you'd have people who were enormously wealthy while others would be on the breadline.

 

[Jacob]

.....that's just how life is!

So crammed with tired cliches and half baked ideas! An imaginary world.

 

[ey_tony]

So crammed with tired cliches and half baked ideas! An imaginary world.

That describes the Socialist Utopia perfectly!

 

[JSW]

 

[Jacob]

That describes the Socialist Utopia perfectly!

Your idealised (ideological) capitalism is pretty much the Robinson Crusoe idea - that we can just snap out of it, pull ourselves together, pull ourselves up by the bootstraps, as though we are new arrivals on Crusoe's uninhabited island (which also happened to have plenty of available food, fresh water, a beached ship full of tools and other gear, pleasant climate etc. not to mention the convenient arrival of a slave, Man Friday).
Two glaring differences - there are 60 million on our island, but even more significant is that every inch of it is owned and jealously protected. Enclosures and clearances deprived most of the population of the right to even step on it, let alone to start a livelihood. Millions still don't even have adequate housing, let alone a place to work.
A good start towards Crusoe paradise would be to take back the land into public ownership - or at least to tax it heavily - like rental.
That could just be the start.

https://victorianweb.org/victorian/history/Capitalism.html

 

[Chris152]

We should protect and care for the vulnerable members of our society but we should also condemn those who would abuse the system by choosing a benefits lifestyle. That shouldn't be an option.

The idea it's a free choice made from some neutral ground is a problem. For great swathes of young people in this country, there's somewhere between little and no hope of 'pulling themselves up by the bootstraps'. Rather than blame just the rich, we need to question all those who support government that doesn't address the terrible situation so many are in, that doesn't offer adequate education to all (and the circumstances to allow all to benefit from it), infrastructure and support to allow people real options in life, and so on. If you're born into 'benefits street', how do you even see a way out, let alone grasp it?

Until there's some kind of equality of opportunity, for many people such choices that you name scarcely exist.

 

[Jacob]

The idea it's a free choice made from some neutral ground is a problem. For great swathes of young people in this country, there's somewhere between little and no hope of 'pulling themselves up by the bootstraps'. Rather than blame just the rich, we need to question all those who support government that doesn't address the terrible situation so many are in, that doesn't offer adequate education to all (and the circumstances to allow all to benefit from it), infrastructure and support to allow people real options in life, and so on. If you're born into 'benefits street', how do you even see a way out, let alone grasp it?

Until there's some kind of equality of opportunity, for many people such choices that you name scarcely exist.

I don't know of anybody at all who has chosen "a benefits lifestyle" lets face it if they exist at all it's not a good choice!
I know of plenty who have been there briefly out of necessity, including myself.
I had to sign on for two weeks minimum to get on to a TOPS course (fast track C&G carpentry and joinery with maintenance allowance.) It's kept me in work ever since! I was planning a life of idleness!
A big delusion is that "the unemployed" is a solid mob of people reluctant to work, whereas in fact it's a revolving door - they are coming and going continually. Ditto the well off.
Even more so "successful capitalist businesses". The ones you see are are successful (so far) but it's here today gone tomorrow with no end of personal loss or dissatisfaction - there are thousands gone to the wall. What happened to ICI, Rolls Royce and all UK motor manufacturers - all disappeared or propped up by nationalisation?

 

[John Brown]

I'm not really sure what capitalism has to do with a meritocracy.

 

[Spectric]

What do you think of this chap:

Robin Hood comes to mind, taking anything that is not yours is stealing.

 

[Jacob]

Robin Hood comes to mind, taking anything that is not yours is stealing.

Yebbut the whole point is; is it really yours? (how did you come by it) and secondly do you have a divine right to surplus property/wealth when others are in need?

 

[Chris152]

Marvellous.

 

[ey_tony]

I don't know of anybody at all who has chosen "a benefits lifestyle" lets face it if they exist at all it's not a good choice!
I know of plenty who have been there briefly out of necessity, including myself.
I had to sign on for two weeks minimum to get on to a TOPS course (fast track C&G carpentry and joinery with maintenance allowance.) It's kept me in work ever since! I was planning a life of idleness!

My OH is a social worker working daily to protect at-risk children in very often extremely dysfunctional families and most of her clients are the recipients of benefits in some form or other so just because you personally don't know anyone who has chosen a benefits lifestyle, it doesn't mean that they don't exist, far from it as it happens.
On the contrary, quite a number of the families she deals with as well as being dysfunctional are generational benefit lovers in that the grandparents etc have all chosen a benefits lifestyle rather than working for a living like most decent people do. The grandparents did it and then their children follow their example and so the cycle continues. I've no doubt that if nothing changes, those children she is charged with protecting right now will likely themselves choose the same benefit lifestyle when older.

Clearly some parents have mental or physical health issues or learning difficulties which precludes them from functioning normally in society and they need the social and benefit safety nets to help them cope but many are just too downright lazy to get off their backsides and find a job to support themselves and their children. Many also have substance or alcohol abuse in the background. They don't want work and will continue that way as long they can sponge of the taxpayers.

Currently one of my OH's clients is extremely unhappy with her because she won't sign a form in support of the parent who is making a false benefits claim on behalf of her child. She has been falsely claiming hundreds of pounds per month for this one specific child who has nothing wrong with her other than she hasn't been to school for two years. She's approached other colleagues of my OH who are also involved in the case and they too have refused to countenance the claim.

This same person chain smokes two packets of cigarettes per day which must be at least £200 per week. The taxpayer pays for all of that!

Sorry but I really don't think you live in the real world. This is how many people actually live...at the expense of the other taxpayers.

 

[Jacob]

Marvellous.
View attachment 185901

 

[Jacob]

My OH is a social worker working daily to protect at-risk children in very often extremely dysfunctional families and most of her clients are the recipients of benefits in some form or other so just because you personally don't know anyone who has chosen a benefits lifestyle, it doesn't mean that they don't exist, far from it as it happens.
On the contrary, quite a number of the families she deals with as well as being dysfunctional are generational benefit lovers in that the grandparents etc have all chosen a benefits lifestyle rather than working for a living like most decent people do. The grandparents did it and then their children follow their example and so the cycle continues. I've no doubt that if nothing changes, those children she is charged with protecting right now will likely themselves choose the same benefit lifestyle when older.

This is total nonsense but a popular malicious right wing trope.
You have completely missed the point which is that nobody chooses to be dysfunctional.
I do know "dysfunctional" people but they tend to have diagnoses such as Downs syndrome, autism, adhd, etc. They don't make it up and would desperately like to be "normal"
Even less likely that it's a generational thing.
No half competent normal person would choose "a benefits lifestyle".
It's just the usual right-wing blame game; immigrants, the poor, the unemployed, single mothers, the downright stupid, the ill, all blamed for societal problems.
Another toxic and intentionally divisive falsehood from the populist handbook.

 

[Spectric]

don't know anyone who has chosen a benefits lifestyle, it doesn't mean that they don't exist, far from it as it happens.

They do exist and people have chosen that way of life, why you may ask. Well if you can get clued up on the system or take advice on claiming it can be very lucrative, also some will supplement the income with the odd job here and there but I think for many it is not having to face the 9 to 5 routine until they retire which they do not want so have opted out. In a local town not that far from me that lives off tourism they have a huge shortage of staff in many of the shops and cafes whilst a large number of younger people just hang around and do not want the jobs, the difference in benefits and pay is just to close so they don't take them.

 

[Jacob]

..... the difference in benefits and pay is just to close so they don't take them.

well in that case best to go for the benefits. Low pay and insecurity in tourist seasonal work can get you into the benefits trap whereby losing a job can lose you benefits too, due to the slow claims process.
Transition to and from insecure short term work and benefits should be made easier. In fact it's one of the reasons for the proliferation of food banks - people with very little security getting caught out by failed bureaucracy, between jobs or housing etc.

 

[Noel]

Sorry to interrupt.
So, RNC apparently hacked and emails and internal documents are being sent to (oddly) Politico (Trump supporter so won't be publishing them) and the WAPO by an individual named Robert. RNC say Iran was behind the hack.
Some say it smells a bit fishy.....unless some in the GOP want rid of Vance.