Upgrading from the Lidl chisels...what next?

[Bodgers]

Still haven't fully decided yet. Was almost going to go for 3 Ashley Iles chisels, and then I remembered I have a very nice card burnisher made by Crown (Sheffield).

It looks like they make chisels. They do a set of 4 for £95. Apparently, they are Cryogenic treated, which I believe is Mr Hock's speciality. Anybody know anything about Crown stuff?


https://www.flinn-garlick-saws.co.uk/ac ... hisel.html

 

[JimB]

I'd suggest as ED65 did, hanging on the LIDLs until they have had a couple of grinds.
Second-hand? I've normally stuck with Marples, a set of the early blue chip bought new about 40 or more years ago and some older ones that seemed to gravitate into the work-shed.
There are many good quality old chisels out there well worth the price. My wife saw me looking at Derek's pictures of the West Australian Wood Show and asked me, 'why on earth are the still making tools when there are so many around'? :wink:

 

[johnnyb]

My favourites re steel quality are footprints. The black and yellow handles. Although it's unusual to find the handles in great nick. There drop forged not like the old chisels though.

 

[JimB]

I have an excellent footprint, red handled, 1/8".

 

[D_W]

Still haven't fully decided yet. Was almost going to go for 3 Ashley Iles chisels, and then I remembered I have a very nice card burnisher made by Crown (Sheffield).

It looks like they make chisels. They do a set of 4 for £95. Apparently, they are Cryogenic treated, which I believe is Mr Hock's speciality. Anybody know anything about Crown stuff?


https://www.flinn-garlick-saws.co.uk/ac ... hisel.html

Cryo treatment is a greater benefit for A2 steel or something with large carbides. I'm sure it makes a small marginal benefit for O1 steel if the steel quality is poor or something goes wrong in heat treatment, but I doubt it does much to practically improve good stock that's been handled properly (and would do nothing for water hardening steel).

That said, the crown chisel profile is a modern tool box style chisel, more of a firmer than a cabinetmaker's chisel. I'd stick with the Iles chisel. It's likely that the alloy in the iles chisels (which is specifically O1) is better for chisels, will be better sharpening, and unless crown specifies actual hardness and proves to back it up, the iles chisels will be closer to historical hardness before chisels got cheapened and set to an industrial standard in hardness.

Or put more plainly, the iles chisel has better proportions, likely a better choice of alloys and likely higher hardness. Nothing new that's crown or robert sorby has knocked me off of my feet. The iles chisels, for effectively $27 per at retail (with a proper delicate grind and ability to avoid succumbing to cheap steels or steels that are just good for the maker more than they are for the user due to stability in manufacture) are a real marvel.

 

[D_W]

I have an excellent footprint, red handled, 1/8".

The English footprint chisels are also fantastic. It's too bad they weren't more commonly made with ash or boxwood handles. The acetate handles are heavy, but the chisels themselves are great if they have the classic shallower bevel grind. Grind is a lot like iles, and the steel is suitably hard.

 

[Bodgers]

Still haven't fully decided yet. Was almost going to go for 3 Ashley Iles chisels, and then I remembered I have a very nice card burnisher made by Crown (Sheffield).

It looks like they make chisels. They do a set of 4 for £95. Apparently, they are Cryogenic treated, which I believe is Mr Hock's speciality. Anybody know anything about Crown stuff?


https://www.flinn-garlick-saws.co.uk/ac ... hisel.html

Cryo treatment is a greater benefit for A2 steel or something with large carbides. I'm sure it makes a small marginal benefit for O1 steel if the steel quality is poor or something goes wrong in heat treatment, but I doubt it does much to practically improve good stock that's been handled properly (and would do nothing for water hardening steel).

That said, the crown chisel profile is a modern tool box style chisel, more of a firmer than a cabinetmaker's chisel. I'd stick with the Iles chisel. It's likely that the alloy in the iles chisels (which is specifically O1) is better for chisels, will be better sharpening, and unless crown specifies actual hardness and proves to back it up, the iles chisels will be closer to historical hardness before chisels got cheapened and set to an industrial standard in hardness.

Or put more plainly, the iles chisel has better proportions, likely a better choice of alloys and likely higher hardness. Nothing new that's crown or robert sorby has knocked me off of my feet. The iles chisels, for effectively $27 per at retail (with a proper delicate grind and ability to avoid succumbing to cheap steels or steels that are just good for the maker more than they are for the user due to stability in manufacture) are a real marvel.

Thanks. I wasn't sure whether the Crown chisels were O1 or A2 Cryo. There is much more information around their Cryo turning tools, which are described as M42 HSS Cryogenic treated...

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[large red]

I picked up a Rider stubby chisel the other day, it was very cheap so I wasn't expecting much but it's great, takes and holds an edge feels great in my hand. I have not put it down since I got it.

 

[Phil Pascoe]

Doesn't it get in the way when you wipe your behind?

 

[large red]

Doesn't it get in the way when you wipe your behind?

Scrape and wipe in one motion

 

[D_W]

Thanks. I wasn't sure whether the Crown chisels were O1 or A2 Cryo. There is much more information around their Cryo turning tools, which are described as M42 HSS Cryogenic treated...

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It used to be reserved for A2 and nastier stuff, but there have been several mentions of makers using it on O1 steel. If crown does their own heat treatment or contracts it, it may just be due to the process including it.

The best two O1 irons that I've ever used were one of my make and one made by Steve Knight. i didn't do anything special on mine, just paid attention to the details and bought premium stock. I have not tempered my iron past 350 degrees, it is extremely hard and does not chip in a shooting plane. I know steve knight cryo treated his O1 irons, but if he used very high quality stock, I can't say that it actually made any difference. I didn't set out to make a "great" iron, i only set out not to make a bad one and turned out with a favorable result. I will usually (when I make my own iron) leave it as hard as it will tolerate without chipping, and then start tempering at 350 degrees, descending 25 degrees at a time for additional tempering. With good stock, subsequent tempering usually isn't required.

 

[Bodgers]

I emailed Crown about their Cryo Bevel chisels.

They say the steel is:

"High Carbon EN9 Steel"

They also provides a PDF on their Cryogenic process and a picture of the actual chisels as they aren't on the site.

 

[Bodgers]

Rather than spend the big money straight away, I decided to see what a small step up in money would bring.

So, £7 for one 'new' 20mm Stanley 5002.

That's still about the price as all 4 of the Lidl chisels, and the Stanley has a plastic handle. It is marvel (depending on your point of view) of the global economy and manufacturing processes that you get a chisel with a sharp edge in half decent steel with a wooden handle from wood grown far from the country of manufacture and then your local super market sell it for less than 2 quid a chisel.

Anyway, the Stanley arrived in a sealed plastic case and was new. But, given the old Stanley logo, older looking photos and an absence of any web addresses, I am thinking this dates back to the mid to late nineties.

Comparing to a Lidl chisel, it seems like a bit more of a refined thing.

Mill marks are much lighter on the Stanley, and best of all the bevel edges are much, much shallower than the Lidl, which makes for a better dovetail maybe.

The handle on the Stanley is ok for being plastic. It has a nice shape, but the wood feel of the Hornbeam is nicer and the flared end is actually fairly practical.

I gave the back a flatten with the diamond stones, but it was actually pretty flat. Much flatter than the Lidl one out of the box that had a hollow in the middle.

After honing it was possible to get an end grain shaving in pine.

So, I might actually get a few more and use these for a while before spending big on some Ashley Isles or Japanese chisels.

 

[AndyT]

Those are good chisels and very good value at that price. According to urban exploration sites the Stanley works in Sheffield was abandoned in 2008, giving a last possible date, but I agree with your estimate.

 

[Chris152]

Having snapped the 6mm one from my Lidl set (doing something stupid) I bought a 10mm and 6mm from Axminster's hornbeam range. I probably wouldn't know a good from a bad chisel and have only used them a few times so far but they seem pretty good and about £10/ 12 each.
https://www.axminster.co.uk/media/downl ... ochure.pdf (part way down).

 

[woodbloke66]

I picked up a Rider stubby chisel the other day, it was very cheap so I wasn't expecting much but it's great, takes and holds an edge feels great in my hand. I have not put it down since I got it.

Whist the Rider range of planes can be decidedly 'iffy' if you get hold of a bad one, the chisels are excellent as they're made by Narex. I did a bit of testing on some before I left Ax and they were pretty impressive. At that time, Ax were looking into the possibility of a cryo version so Ian Styles asked me to test a standard chisel against the cryo version without knowing which was which. Using a loupe, the difference in the edge after testing was immediately apparent!
That said, the standard chisel was still pretty good and if you go for one or a set, I'd recommend the hornbeam handled versions with thick, stainless steel ferules. Check also that the backs are slightly hollow; one or two of the plastic handles chisels I looked at had convex instead of concave backs. If you get a set with convex backs, send them back for a replacement or refund. Better still would be to visit a store and hand pick/test the chisels in the shop.

No connection or affiliation of any sort with Axminster or their products - Rob

 

[D_W]

If cryo treatment makes a lot of difference, it suggests that the basic steel they're using isn't that fine, or it has large carbides as a matter of type.

(e.g., S30V has giant carbides. It makes it so that it can't hold a fine edge nearly as well as a cheap knife, but if you want to do something with your knife like scrape steel, and you don't need a fine edge, they are really tough).

I took a bunch of pictures of edges last year when I got a metallurgical microscope. What I saw with the more plain steel from 200-125 years ago was a much finer edge and much more consistent wear pattern. However, it was harder for the makers of those tools to make them without cryo (more skill involved, and much narrower range for success) than it is for modern makers to use a more complicated but better behaved steel. So, it's not like you could go back to the old principles and make something better and cheaper - or the makers would already be doing it. You could make something better (which would be closer to run of the mill japanese chisels), but it definitely wouldn't be cheap.

 

[woodbloke66]

If cryo treatment makes a lot of difference, it suggests that the basic steel they're using isn't that fine, or it has large carbides as a matter of type.

(

Without going waaaaay off topic, I'm no metallurgist and know less about steels, but Ax 'Rider' chisels are made by Narex, who are a pretty reputable brand. I've also tested their chisels and I found them to be good as well, though they weren't compared to old, English made chisels from the 19th cent. As a matter of preference, I now use decent quality Japanese chisels, simply because they take and hold the finest edge of any chisel that I've ever come across - Rob