Under Development - Garnham style dropout boxes

[woodbloke]

I have half created a dropout box/dust collector/whatever it's called, which I have done a basic test and works very well. I kept it very simple - the same as Mike's original, although I do plan to put a vacuum dust filter (not HEPA- just ordinary) in the top left box just before the exit to the vacuum itself.

As I said, I started and then got diverted with another project. I bought 5m of Henry Hoover hose from fleabay and I thik it should fit, but this is probably my biggest challenge. This took about two hours to knock up and I just used off cuts and bits and pieces. It isn't pretty, but it did seem effective. I'll post more pics and test results when it's finished.

Steve

You've done this one 'landscape' whereas I did mine 'portrait' which is the reason I put in the extra layer to increase the air flow length - Rob

 

[sometimewoodworker]

Wouldn't it be easier to recycle one of the thousands of cyclone's tossed away at the skip? I seen this one on another forum.

I think i'll try and make something similar.

Could you give a link to the thread on the forum that found that please.

I am soon to update my setup and there seem to be some good ideas there.

 

[Mike.C]

How did Mike (Saville) decide where to put the baffle's and how many to use? What are the baffle's for?

How did any of you decide what size box to build?

I have 100mm metal extraction piping around my workshop, but I am very unsatisfied with its performance. Would one of Mike Garnham's box's work with a 100mm system? and if so how big would the box need to be?

Mike,

It should work really well with your system, I'd have thought. The thing is, it can be made of scrap in a few hours for zero cost, so if it doesn't work there is no harm done.

My instinct is that your hose cross sectional area is approx. 9 times mine, so the volume in the box should be roughly 9 times the volume of my box......and the dims of mine are above (page 3). The volume of my current box is .08 cu.m roughly, so I reckon yours should be at least three quarters of a cubic metre.......but the bigger it is, the better it will work.

The baffles are there merely to knock some of the sawdust and chips out of the airstream so that gravity can grab them more easily.

The other thing that would make it better, I think, would be if the drop-box was located adjacent to the machine, .....but this probably isn't too important.

The only other thought I have had about your set-up with multiple machines trying to work together to do the extracting, is are they working with each other, or cancelling each other out?

What you are proposing is exactly what I have in mind when I build my next workshop.

Mike

Mike many thanks for the explanation and the size of the box I need.

As for the 3 extractors cancelling each other out, I will have to do some testing but I think you might very well be right, because if you disconnect and put your hand over the inlet of a single extractor, and then go over and test the inlet pipe by a machine with all 3 extractors running, I am sure the single extractor feels more powerful.
Have you got any tips on positioning the extractors? (the metal piping runs down the complete length of a 26ft x 13ft workshop, with several branches running off to my machines) Or would I be better off selling them and buying a single more powerful extractor to do the job?
If so have you (or anyone else) got any recommendations?
What figures should I be looking at? For instance Scheppach claim that their HA2600 has a volume rating of 1000m3 per hour, 1/sec, is this the figure, because I cannot see any other info?
The Elektra Beckum is 842 hm3/wy and the Camvac gives their's in litres 108 l/sec.

I have this type of blast gate http://www.diytools.co.uk/diy/Main/sp-4 ... oryID1=979 (but not from this company). Can they ever cause a problem by leaking?

Once again any advice will be gratefully received

Cheers

Mike

I would appreciate any tips on the above.

By the way Steve what a bleeding awful result we had against stoke city today :roll:

Cheers

Mike

 

[woodsworth]

http://sanaka.smugmug.com/Woodworking/Cycloned-Shop-Vac/10837914_qxJSY#755871538_XCoZH

Here you go. The forum is member only but he posted it on the above link in one of his galleries, which actually gives more detail then the forum post any how.

This is the route i want to go. I'll just have to nick a hoover from the skip next time i'm there. Seems silly you can't recycle something that someone has thrown away. Then i'll have to find a shop vac on the cheap. I want to actually put the shop vac up in the attic though and re-pipe the exhaust back in the room. I can't stand all the noise.

 

[SPinonit]

By the way Steve what a bleeding awful result we had against stoke city today :roll:

Yeah, it was a rubbish result, but I think Arsene was right to rest some players - we've got a difficult few weeks ahead: Villa, Man U, Chelski, Liverpool and then Champs League against Porto. Let's hope they make up for today's poor performance eh....

 

[DavidE]

I would appreciate any tips on the above.

Cheers

Mike

Hi Mike,

I think unless you have both extractors connected together with identical pipework one will tend to draw through the other. I tried connecting two together a few years back and it was dire. When you look at the dual/triple motor designs they are all in the same chamber so should act together. I've certainly found running one extractor is a lot more effective.


Other stuff -

I think the recycling is top notch, however, if you are trying to make it work on a bigger system... depending on the diameter of the salvaged part it may inccur a high pressure/extraction loss. The idea with the boxes is to get the drop out without any significant losses. I think to be effective on a 100mm system you'd need to make a bigger cyclone. I say this just from my engineering instinct not from any empirical experience! (so read with a pinch of salt )

I have every intention of trying to post detail of what is going on inside Mikes orginal box... I've just not got round to it yet. Hopefully, one night this week!

Cheers
David

 

[Mike.C]

Dave many thanks for taking the time to reply it is very much appreciated. I have done some testing and there is a definite drop in suction when all three are running.

The trouble is I do not understand the power readings that the manufacturers give, and what to look for in an extractor to run the complete system. I am ok making a drop box, but it is going to be of no use if I cannot decide or get recommendations if the above extractors are any good, or if I should sell all three and buy one machine that will run the system in my size of workshop.
It is very frustrating to know that the knowledge is out there but I cannot obtain it. Especially when dust extraction is a pet hate of mine.

Again with reference to the link above I do not even know if the blast gates I have are any good, because just pulling them shut and tightening a bolt in my mind does not seem good enough, and although I cannot feel or hear any air escaping past them, I would have thought that they would need a rubber type gasket to seal the system properly. But there again I do not know much about the workings of dust extractors and all the parts that go into making a system to really know if I am right or not.

Cheers

Mike

Cheers

Mike

 

[DavidE]

Dave many thanks for taking the time to reply it is very much appreciated. I have done some testing and there is a definite drop in suction when all three are running.

The trouble is I do not understand the power readings that the manufacturers give, and what to look for in an extractor to run the complete system. I am ok making a drop box, but it is going to be of no use if I cannot decide or get recommendations if the above extractors are any good, or if I should sell all three and buy one machine that will run the system in my size of workshop.
It is very frustrating to know that the knowledge is out there but I cannot obtain it. Especially when dust extraction is a pet hate of mine.

Again with reference to the link above I do not even know if the blast gates I have are any good, because just pulling them shut and tightening a bolt in my mind does not seem good enough, and although I cannot feel or hear any air escaping past them, I would have thought that they would need a rubber type gasket to seal the system properly. But there again I do not know much about the workings of dust extractors and all the parts that go into making a system to really know if I am right or not.

Cheers

Mike

Cheers

Mike

Hi Mike,

I agree looking at extractors is confusing. From my own boggy tread through the specs I think there are too broad types:

Chip Extractors - lots of volume - however, they are not good on small diameter pipes - like extracting off a sander.

Higher pressure, lower volume ones (More like shop vacs or the record power RSDE1s etc) They can stand smaller pipes and still maintain their suction. They also usually filter down to much smaller sizes as they are intended more for dust.

The difference is down to the type of impellor used to generate the flow and their ability to pull down (ie higher vacuum) on the system.

So, I think you have to make a choice, chips or dust. Then from that work out what flow rate you need. I find that my 1kW (53l/s) RSDE1 is okay for most stuff, however, for the table saw I wish I had the too motor version to give twice the suck. I think if you try to visual how much air it is shifting per second it gives you a good idea of what is going on. The other thing you can look at is the flow speed. If you look on page one you can work out an approximate flow speed at your ports and visualise how well that will be able to "fight" the speed of the particles ejected by the machine.

I hope this sort of makes sense? I have noticed some manufacturers do recommend flow rates for equipment so it might be useful looking for that.

The other choice comes down to motor type and noise (after the particle size you are targeting)

Regarding your blast gates - I think they are okay as if there is any small gaps the system tends to pull them tight. To test them out put a thin plastic bag over the end to try to seal it, then see if it gets sucked in.

The other thing to try is to shut all the gates and listen to your extractor. If it sucks the system down and goes mad they are sealing. At this point if one is leaking it is likely to be whistling and will also try to pull the bag in more.

Cheers
David

PS What extractors are you using and what is your biggest dust producer in the workshop?

 

[Mike.C]

Dave many thanks for taking the time to reply it is very much appreciated. I have done some testing and there is a definite drop in suction when all three are running.

The trouble is I do not understand the power readings that the manufacturers give, and what to look for in an extractor to run the complete system. I am ok making a drop box, but it is going to be of no use if I cannot decide or get recommendations if the above extractors are any good, or if I should sell all three and buy one machine that will run the system in my size of workshop.
It is very frustrating to know that the knowledge is out there but I cannot obtain it. Especially when dust extraction is a pet hate of mine.

Again with reference to the link above I do not even know if the blast gates I have are any good, because just pulling them shut and tightening a bolt in my mind does not seem good enough, and although I cannot feel or hear any air escaping past them, I would have thought that they would need a rubber type gasket to seal the system properly. But there again I do not know much about the workings of dust extractors and all the parts that go into making a system to really know if I am right or not.

Cheers

Mike

Cheers

Mike

Hi Mike,

I agree looking at extractors is confusing. From my own boggy tread through the specs I think there are too broad types:

Chip Extractors - lots of volume - however, they are not good on small diameter pipes - like extracting off a sander.

Higher pressure, lower volume ones (More like shop vacs or the record power RSDE1s etc) They can stand smaller pipes and still maintain their suction. They also usually filter down to much smaller sizes as they are intended more for dust.

The difference is down to the type of impellor used to generate the flow and their ability to pull down (ie higher vacuum) on the system.

So, I think you have to make a choice, chips or dust. Then from that work out what flow rate you need. I find that my 1kW (53l/s) RSDE1 is okay for most stuff, however, for the table saw I wish I had the too motor version to give twice the suck. I think if you try to visual how much air it is shifting per second it gives you a good idea of what is going on. The other thing you can look at is the flow speed. If you look on page one you can work out an approximate flow speed at your ports and visualise how well that will be able to "fight" the speed of the particles ejected by the machine.

I hope this sort of makes sense? I have noticed some manufacturers do recommend flow rates for equipment so it might be useful looking for that.

The other choice comes down to motor type and noise (after the particle size you are targeting)

Regarding your blast gates - I think they are okay as if there is any small gaps the system tends to pull them tight. To test them out put a thin plastic bag over the end to try to seal it, then see if it gets sucked in.

The other thing to try is to shut all the gates and listen to your extractor. If it sucks the system down and goes mad they are sealing. At this point if one is leaking it is likely to be whistling and will also try to pull the bag in more.

Cheers
David

PS What extractors are you using and what is your biggest dust producer in the workshop?

Hi Dave,

Now that you have put it in laymans terms so to speak we are getting somewhere, and I can certainly put my mind at rest about the blast gates with your fool proof test =D>

I also understand the difference between the two types of extractors, and I use the Scheppach HA 2600 and Elecktra Beckum chip extractors, and for fine dust the twin motored Camvac GV386. I also use the latter running from the blade guard when I am using the table saw. (along with the chip extractors. A mistake I suspect).

Thanks for your reply

Mike

 

[big soft moose]

so who's going to be the first to build a garnham box in polished rosewood and burr walnut with a marquetry detail on the lid - we know how much mike would appreciate that :lol:

 

[Chris_belgium]

My box

Will be mounted like this. (I know there should be a blade guard on the P/T )

Will have two outlets, one big one for the planer/thicknesser and a small one for handheld tools. Am planning on installing some ducting around my workshop with various connections for vacuum hose.

Hopefully the box is big enough for this motor, there are no markings on the motor as to how many air it moves only electrical markings. Will keep you guys updated as to how it works, when the ducting parts arrive.

 

[Chris Knight]

We'll soon need a prize for the largest!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bernoulli%27s_principle

 

[wizer]

Guys, I've been reading through this thread. A lot of it's gone over my head. There is one problem that I have with this idea, for me. All of these designs call for someone who's not a feeble medical wreck, in that they either drop out into a box which needs to be lifted to pour into another bin for disposal and\or the top section needs to be lifted completely off, which looks heavy to me.

I was thinking about incorporating a drop box directly under my tablesaw, integrated into a cabinet. But the problem with this is getting the full 'hopper' out and into the wheelie bin or a sack for taking to the dump.

So two things have crossed my mind. Firstly and simply, can a bag be put in to collect the dust? Or would that not work in terms of suction?

Secondly, what about fitting a drop box above the wheelie bin? So that the waste goes straight into the bin and can be wheeled out on bin day? Because of my feebleness, I'd need to think of a way to make removing the drop box part easily. I'm thinking, then that it would need to be part of an 'enclosure'.

This has turned out to be a bit of a brain dump. Any thoughts on my ramblings?

 

[sometimewoodworker]

Guys, I've been reading through this thread. A lot of it's gone over my head. There is one problem that I have with this idea, for me. All of these designs call for someone who's not a feeble medical wreck, in that they either drop out into a box which needs to be lifted to pour into another bin for disposal and\or the top section needs to be lifted completely off, which looks heavy to me.

I was thinking about incorporating a drop box directly under my tablesaw, integrated into a cabinet. But the problem with this is getting the full 'hopper' out and into the wheelie bin or a sack for taking to the dump.

So two things have crossed my mind. Firstly and simply, can a bag be put in to collect the dust? Or would that not work in terms of suction?

Secondly, what about fitting a drop box above the wheelie bin? So that the waste goes straight into the bin and can be wheeled out on bin day? Because of my feebleness, I'd need to think of a way to make removing the drop box part easily. I'm thinking, then that it would need to be part of an 'enclosure'.

This has turned out to be a bit of a brain dump. Any thoughts on my ramblings?

There is no problem doing what you need as long as it will be stationary. All you have to do is scale up either of the designs that use a separate container.
You will have a Godzilla of a collector as you will need to enclose the wheelie bin .
You will probably have to buy another wheelie bin because you will probably only need to take it out once a month/year.

The one woodsworth found will work if you make it in a fixed location

 

[woodbloke]

Tom - if you look at the 'Blokebox' thread, I've designed this to work with the K419, but I haven't fitted an internal box for easy disposal of the dust...could be easily done though with a little bit of re-jigging - Rob

 

[wizer]

Tom - if you look at the 'Blokebox' thread, I've designed this to work with the K419, but I haven't fitted an internal box for easy disposal of the dust...could be easily done though with a little bit of re-jigging - Rob

This was my initial thought, to have a drawer under the saw that collected the dust, via a Garnham style drop box. However, when thinking about it further, disposing of that dust might be a problem. Not just because of the weight\spine issue, but also because it'd be bloody messy. The only way to stop that dust from getting back into the air would be to carefully take it outside and tip it into the bin or bag with the wind behind you. Not the absolute end of the world, but if the wind happens to be blowing towards the house (or my neighbours house), then it becomes an issue. As such, this idea isn't viable, for me.

You will have a Godzilla of a collector

Yes, you see that's the problem I can't get my head around. All these drop boxes add a significant amount of footprint. I'm not entirely sure that it's worth the loss of floor space over the gain in filter efficiency. I own an RSDE2 which, at the moment is used mainly on the TS and for clearing up. To use this with a drop box or cyclone would mean doubling the size of it. To remedy this, I think I'd have to shorten the drum of the RSDE2 significantly to reduce it's size. If space were no object, I'd have the chip collector and RSDE2 next to each other, each feeding a wheelie bin with a cyclone above. But that would rape a vast amount of wall space in an already cramped workshop. We rarely use our brown bin for anything except sawdust, so there wouldn't be any need to get a 2nd wheelie. Although, as I say, it would also be nice to fit wheelie to the chip collector.

This is the sort of thing I have in mind

Obviously the wheelie would go underneath.

Very confused. I think it's easier to just stick with the current setup. :?

 

[sometimewoodworker]

Tom - if you look at the 'Blokebox' thread, I've designed this to work with the K419, but I haven't fitted an internal box for easy disposal of the dust...could be easily done though with a little bit of re-jigging - Rob

This was my initial thought, to have a drawer under the saw that collected the dust, via a Garnham style drop box. However, when thinking about it further, disposing of that dust might be a problem. Not just because of the weight\spine issue, but also because it'd be bloody messy. The only way to stop that dust from getting back into the air would be to carefully take it outside and tip it into the bin or bag with the wind behind you. Not the absolute end of the world, but if the wind happens to be blowing towards the house (or my neighbours house), then it becomes an issue. As such, this idea isn't viable, for me.

I don't see the problem with that idea.

If you put a rubbish bag in the draw keep and it in place with 3 or 4 bits of loose thin ply, MDF or cardboard. Then when you want to dump it just whip out the liners and tie the top of the bag.

The one under is a different shape but the same principal. :arrow:

You will have a Godzilla of a collector

Yes, you see that's the problem I can't get my head around. All these drop boxes add a significant amount of footprint. I'm not entirely sure that it's worth the loss of floor space over the gain in filter efficiency. I own an RSDE2 which, at the moment is used mainly on the TS and for clearing up. To use this with a drop box or cyclone would mean doubling the size of it. To remedy this, I think I'd have to shorten the drum of the RSDE2 significantly to reduce it's size.
----Snip ----
. Although, as I say, it would also be nice to fit wheelie to the chip collector.

This is the sort of thing I have in mind

Obviously the wheelie would go underneath.

Very confused. I think it's easier to just stick with the current setup. :?

If you have the hight you could knock the bottom of the RSDE2 out and fit it to a a shaped top that fits your wheelie, then all the dust it collects will go directly into the wheelie. Of course that presupposes you can lift the empty RSDE2.[/img]

 

[MikeG.]

If you have the hight you could knock the bottom of the RSDE2 out and fit it to a a shaped top that fits your wheelie, then all the dust it collects will go directly into the wheelie.

But that misses the point! The whole point of the design is to prevent dust getting to your main machine, and to its filter. If it doesn't get to the filter, it can't get through it and into the air you breath.

Mike

 

[woodsworth]

This has turned out to be a bit of a brain dump. Any thoughts on my ramblings?

I think a simple solution for you would be to buy or find a lid for a wheely bin and attach a cyclone to it. Then all you need is a very good shop vac.

All you do is open the wheely bin put your cyclone lid on with good gasket and clips, hook up the hose to your table saw and plug in your shop vac and bobs your uncle.

Disclaimer:
I do not condone steeling your neighbors lid

 

[wizer]

I think a simple solution for you would be to buy or find a lid for a wheely bin and attach a cyclone to it. Then all you need is a very good shop vac.

I think I came to this conclusion last night. A small cyclone would be better in terms of weight and size. I may even be able to situate it out the front of the workshop with my new plans for the door.

Thanks guys, need to spend some time with sketchup now.