UK Future

[Max Power]

Civilised and intelligent European Parliament :lol: :lol: :lol:

Biggest gravy train ever created more like :roll:

They make our lots corrupt activities pale into oblivion :mrgreen:

 

[Allylearm]

I like the take on DC voting first not to vote, but their will be other votes. When will DC actually vote UK in. I think like all ditherers he will wait to see who is winning the debate in UK or European finance and I do not think it will be his back benches and Boris, the CBI are staying on the fence, its members have most to lose or will our manufacturing base leave for Europe in the long term and unemployment that will cause.

The other issue, as I muted the European countries have big employers in London like Deutsche Bank and other's from France, Spain, etc. What if they all leave to their own shores or go and setup in Brussels. What does the City do and what happens to the tax revenue DC wished to protect. The only reason these banks or the City in London is setup for Finance is the skill pool is here. My own part on this was the skills these folks show in past history they would be better getting Pro Gamblers from Las Vegas doing the trading as I do not think the Private School or Oxford/Cambridge educated are hacking it.

I have been thinking about the debt crisis facing Europe/USA and would default be a bad thing, like all bad debt a day of reckoning happens and contacting all creditors is needing faced with what you can pay back and over what period. It may mean hardship but at least we would be in it all together. Plus China would loose most, they seem to bank roll it. Debt is debt when you spend you must pay, but the western countries want it both ways. Stop or come to terms with that we are living beyond our means and put up a plan to payback what we owe. I do not think the Finance sector as we know it now will survive and is such a loss on the long term.

 

[Modernist]

I make the point again that the current reality is that we are run by the markets with no trace of democracy, morality or national interest.

 

[Jacob]

I make the point again that the current reality is that we are run by the markets with no trace of democracy, morality or national interest.

Ditto the press. Also the Italians' problem, with Berlusconi in control of most of it.

 

[Digit]

Wales is classless Jacob? Which part would that be please?

I make the point again that the current reality is that we are run by the markets with no trace of democracy, morality or national interest.

Was Germany and France's actions vis-a-vis Greece determined by democracy, morality or Greece's interest then?
Please explain.
And was HMG's actions this week not based on national interest, and was not Germany's and France's stance?
France for example has ignored EU rules on a number of occasions in their national interest have they not?

Roy.

 

[RogerS]

I make the point again that the current reality is that we are run by the markets with no trace of democracy, morality or national interest.

You are absolutely correct and that's what worries me more than anything else. European banks including ours are facing a huge liquidity crisis. Even today in the FT it looks like several smaller German banks will be asking for funds to help them in the short term. The ECB seem to have no intention of doing anything constructive as far as I can see and yet they are the European bankers of last resort.

Anyone suggesting that we should let banks or entire economies go bankrupt is talking out of their backside.

 

[Jacob]

..... we should let banks or entire economies go bankrupt ..........

Isn't that the free market way? These things self-correct in time, and wealth trickles down relentlessly (with the occasional hiccup)!
The alternative would seem to be socialism of one sort or another. :roll: We can't have that.

 

[Digit]

Do I get an answer Jacob? :twisted:

Roy.

 

[RogerS]

Jacob...NEVER EVER QUOTE ME OUT OF CONTEXT AGAIN AS I WILL GET EVEN MORE P*SSED OFF WITH YOU

 

[Allylearm]

Anyone suggesting that we should let banks or entire economies go bankrupt is talking out of their backside.

Care to elaborate your proof for that statement.

 

[Digit]

Care to elaborate your proof for that statement.

Want an overdraft?
Who would you trade with if your partner's economy collapses?
If a business wishes to invest in new equipment etc it either has to remove capital from its trading profits or talk to its friendly local bank manager.

Roy.

 

[Jacob]

Do I get an answer Jacob? :twisted:

Roy.

Err what's the question?
PS OK I've scanned back it's abt the Welsh and class :roll: . I meant it in the reverse way. I lived in Wales for some time and in many ways the impression I got was that the riff-raff, hoi pollloi, ordinary man on the Llanfair omnibus etc, did not have the fear of education, art, music, culture, intelligent life, etc which their english counterparts suffer from (e.g. Daily Mail readers).
Scotland similar. *
One consequence is that there are more penguins in Scotland and Wales, than tory MPs. :lol: :lol:

*PS And Europe for that matter

 

[Digit]

Strangely Jacob the Daily Mail out sells your chosen rag, tell you anything?

did not have the fear of education, art, music, culture, intelligent life, etc which their english counterparts suffer from

If you think so little of the English why haven't you moved to where the intelligentsia are, ie, as suggested by you, Europe?
If you have that belief about the English I can only imagine that you have chosed to associate with the wrong 'class' of people! :twisted:
Or perhaps they avoid you? :lol:

Roy.

 

[RogerS]

Anyone suggesting that we should let banks or entire economies go bankrupt is talking out of their backside.

Care to elaborate your proof for that statement.

Well, you could read this article on the Icelandic financial crisis. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008%E2%80 ... ial_crisis

 

[Allylearm]

But Roger, correct me if I am wrong, Italy/Greece/Spain/Portugal and even France have no money to get them out of their mess. Europe/World has not enough money to get them out of the mess of these or resulting failures in the other economies. That is the scenario we are facing so is it better to let some go or all go bankrupt. I alas remember Brown and Darling failure to see that Banks in UK were never to big to fail or be allowed to go, a mistake. The result is what we see now and they and the allies in Europe and USA were also wrong propping up failure. They should allow failing banks or economies fail or we result in prolonged pain for all or the resulting failure for all as their is not enough money to cover the debt of the new economies in crisis as the monies has been already spent on the previous failing banks/economies. I was reading only the day that a few German Banks need assistance and so it begins going round and round.

Can I say that we are currently are all fish in a ever decreasing pool, some fish ain't going to survive and it usually is the bigger ones first as the ever dwindling water recedes so starving the fish of oxygen. Question who is big and who is small. I fear a global change in economic terms with the West receding and who or where will replace them.

 

[Max Power]

"Strangely Jacob the Daily Mail out sells your chosen rag, tell you anything?"

which rag would that be Roy?

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

 

[Digit]

Which ever of the two you seem to get your ideas from Jacob.

No Ally, the non-Euro nations can individually devalue their currencies and change their interest rates, the Euro nations can not. This situation is not new you know, we have been here before.
If you wish to see the effects of a country going bankrupt look at Germany in the 30s and Zimbabwe today.
Remember Argentina? British austerity after WW2? Britain's trip to the IMF under Callaghan and the interst rates at that time?

Roy.

 

[Modernist]

Getting back to the point the problem was not just that countries and individuals borrowed and spent too much. That is normally reasonably secure. Speaking for my own business the maximum overdraft I can arrange is covered by 6 x assets. This is largely because the banks will not lend against raw material stock. They will only lend against debtors or property or personal guarantee backed by same. i.e little or no risk.

The problem arose because of convoluted schemes to lend against insecure assets which were dreamed up to create profit and bonusses for the financial services. It was the discovery that these assets were worth significantly less than expected which lead to the crisis.

So the crisis was not originally political it was FS inspired. The global nature of finance then lead to so called contagion to other countries. The smoke and mirror schemes were so huge that the whole financial sector in in danger of collapse.

Countries such as Greece have been economic basket cases for years with lax controls and profligate spending and borrowing. Consequently when the pressure was put on they collapsed financially in the same way as Ireland. When working in Ireland about 5 years ago i.e before the crisis, I was shown whole new housing estates with no inhabitants built entirely on speculation and borrowing. Such situations do not take much to collapse.

The current circus with DC is only exposing existing tensions which the crisis has brought (once again) to the surface.

As a parting shot if Clegg was walking dead before how do we define his status now.

Maybe he'll save us all by pulling the rug on these idiots.

Final thought, we are heading for a Europe of austerity when what we need is growth to pay off the debts, so they still have it wrong.

 

[Digit]

The problem arose because of convoluted schemes to lend against insecure assets which were dreamed up to create profit and bonusses for the financial services. It was the discovery that these assets were worth significantly less than expected which lead to the crisis.

Absolutely Brian, but hereafter is where we separate, according to you that is because the lenders loaned, to me that is because the borrowers borrowed more than they could repay!
If you apply for a credit card and don't tell the lender tht you are already maxed out on half a dozen other cards, or your government cooks the books to obtain more credit, who do you blame?
You say the banks, I disagree.

Roy.

 

[Modernist]

I've got to go and mend my daughter's central heating so I'll think up a reply while I am there :lol: