Two fused switches. Help

[Kev ether]

So its wired in the old BS standard colours then (ie red/black/bare earth with green sleeve fitted) to be 'legal' the new spur 'should' be in the new colours ;-) (but then it should also be done by a licenced electrician as well these days too lol)

Wago's are fine (in fact they are the only legal way to do a connection where it is inacessable!!! - so they can be done in a joint where there is no access- something no other connection is allowed to be done with...) justuse the 'proper' real ones, not the cheap knockoffs...

Personally- I'd use the original backbox as a junction box, with all the new connections done inside it with Wago's, and fit a blanking plate to it, with two new surface mount sockets right next to it
View attachment 192407

So its wired in the old BS standard colours then (ie red/black/bare earth with green sleeve fitted) to be 'legal' the new spur 'should' be in the new colours ;-) (but then it should also be done by a licenced electrician as well these days too lol)

Wago's are fine (in fact they are the only legal way to do a connection where it is inacessable!!! - so they can be done in a joint where there is no access- something no other connection is allowed to be done with...) justuse the 'proper' real ones, not the cheap knockoffs...

Personally- I'd use the original backbox as a junction box, with all the new connections done inside it with Wago's, and fit a blanking plate to it, with two new surface mount sockets right next to it
View attachment 192407

I know this should be done by a qualified electrician but no one wants to do small jobs anymore and if they do they will charge a fortune to do to either put you off hiring them or if you do they will be rubbing their hands together all the way to the bank. It will be cheaper for me to do it and then get it checked and signed off.

 

[Mel769]

Neutral isn't required (although could be added using a 5 core cable) and as noted at the time in the edit, it should have shown an earth going up to the switches as well (not required here lol, and its been a while since I did UK wiring!!!- so I forgt to include it...)

A neutral is required at an FCU (fused connection unit) in the UK, without it the installation is not following regs and would fail a condition report. Granted it would still operate without a neutral but is ropey as F. If the FCU had a neon light showing its on/off status then it would deffo need a neutral. Also, sorry I dont mean to come across as condescending, but wtf would you need a 5 core cable ?

 

[Dabop]

A neutral is required at an FCU (fused connection unit) in the UK, without it the installation is not following regs and would fail a condition report. Granted it would still operate without a neutral but is ropey as F. If the FCU had a neon light showing its on/off status then it would deffo need a neutral. Also, sorry I dont mean to come across as condescending, but wtf would you need a 5 core cable ?

It iwasn't a requirement when I did UK wiring- and I haven't seen it in the BS regs (although I'll admit mine aren't quite up to date anymore- no point wasting the money on something I'll never use again lol)
There's nothing 'dodgy' about not having a neutral at a switch- in fact it is quite rare and still not required here (although with the introduction of 'smart switches' there's talk they may put it in as a requirement in the next edition of the Au/NZ standards for new installs)

For two switches (he did say he wanted them to be individually switched)- that means a Line feed from the old outlet backbox up to the two switches, a neutral up, and a earth up, and two switched line returns down back to the juctions- thats five wires needed in the cable- without a neutral, then you only need four...(Line up, earth up, and two switched lines down...)
You 'could' run 3x 2.5mm TPS- but thats one **** of a lot of cables to chase through lol

 

[Mel769]

It iwasn't a requirement when I did UK wiring- and I haven't seen it in the BS regs (although I'll admit mine aren't quite up to date anymore- no point wasting the money on something I'll never use again lol)
There's nothing 'dodgy' about not having a neutral at a switch- in fact it is quite rare and still not required here (although with the introduction of 'smart switches' there's talk they may put it in as a requirement in the next edition of the Au/NZ standards for new installs)

For two switches (he did say he wanted them to be individually switched)- that means a Line feed from the old outlet backbox up to the two switches, a neutral up, and a earth up, and two switched line returns down back to the juctions- thats five wires needed in the cable- without a neutral, then you only need four...(Line up, earth up, sand two switched lines down...)
You 'could' run 3x 2.5mm TPS- but thats one **** of a lot of cables to chase through lol

Well alls well that ends well. The joys of dodgy wiring lol haha it keeps me in work. Have a good day (or night) or whatever time it is over there

 

[Dabop]

Well alls well that ends well. The joys of dodgy wiring lol haha it keeps me in work. Have a good day (or night) or whatever time it is over there

I'm just doing the washing up for breakfast lol
Nothing dodgy about it- many older houses were wired with 'lamp base to lamp base' for the feeds with just a pair of 'droppers' for each switch (and still are here) and a s 'switch with permanent feed and switched active return' is extremely common in comercial wiring in the UK still...
The 1.5mm version of this would be used for lighting circuits as the 'dropper' from the lamp base for example (this is the 2.5m used for power circuits) with a 1.5mm 3 core TPS/TPE being used to run from lamp base to lamp base...

ie this is the most common way to wire a light swich (using Australian colours here of course)

Here we don't have to run a neutral or an earth to the switch, which was why I forgot to include it in my origial diagram- its been a while since I had to run an earth to a light switch lol- I forgot to 'switch back' to UK requirements for that lol

 

[Spectric]

It will be cheaper for me to do it and then get it checked and signed off.

That might be even more difficult than finding someone to do it in the first place and if it needs rework then more expense.

Current standards for appliances under worktops is straight forward, each appliance should have a FCU behind it under the worktop, this goes to a switch above the worktop so as that appliance can be turned off easily. Now one problem is that plugs are moulded onto the appliances cable and cutting them off to connect to a FCU might invalidate warranty so often a single outlet socket is used instead but these require extra space due to the plug.

Above the worktop you have two pole switches , one for each appliance that are under the worktop which can be supplied by the same circuit, be it an old ring or a radial. You can get these with labels as shown below.

With a new install some people don't like these switches dotted around their kitchen and opt for a single grid switch panel with them all in that is out the way but again labeled switches are available.

 

[Spectric]

ie this is the most common way to wire a light swich (using Australian colours here of course)

This was how it used to be done but now those ceiling roses get less use because people fit lights that come with there own rose so often the loop is done between jb's and neutrals are also droped to switches even if not used for this modern fandangled remote switching idea. Also a lot of people opt for those downlighters, for me a cheap and cheerful idea that leaves to many holes in the ceiling.

 

[Dabop]

That might be even more difficult than finding someone to do it in the first place and if it needs rework then more expense.

Current standards for appliances under worktops is straight forward, each appliance should have a FCU behind it under the worktop, this goes to a switch above the worktop so as that appliance can be turned off easily. Now one problem is that plugs are moulded onto the appliances cable and cutting them off to connect to a FCU might invalidate warranty so often a single outlet socket is used instead but these require extra space due to the plug.

View attachment 192418

Above the worktop you have two pole switches , one for each appliance that are under the worktop which can be supplied by the same circuit, be it an old ring or a radial. You can get these with labels as shown below.

View attachment 192422With a new install some people don't like these switches dotted around their kitchen and opt for a single grid switch panel with them all in that is out the way but again labeled switches are available.
View attachment 192424

When did the DP requiement for the switch come in?- it was only a single pole when I did UK spec wiring...
(seems a bit silly as the DP switches are considerably more expensive and the standard outlets only use a single pole switch internally and are functionally identical...)

That would make his twin switched sockets a right pain- as you would need a huge chase in order to fit three TPE/TPS 2.5mm cables in there- a feed up and two feeds down...

 

[Dabop]

This was how it used to be done but now those ceiling roses get less use because people fit lights that come with there own rose so often the loop is done between jb's and neutrals are also droped to switches even if not used for this modern fandangled remote switching idea. Also a lot of people opt for those downlighters, for me a cheap and cheerful idea that leaves to many holes in the ceiling.

We still use them even for LED or downlights, not only for lamp batten bases...
(imagine the nightmare if you had to run each light back to the switch lol- my mums place has about 8 downlights- 9x 1.5mm TPE running to the switch- urgh...)
;-)
The standard LED downlights can accept two or three 1.5mm TPE in them, so adding a junction box rather than just looping from light to light seems a bit crazy... lol

 

[Mel769]

Standard light switches typically have no terminal for a neutral as its not needed, the neutral being connected at the ceiling rose pendant. Downlights on the other hand utilise a junction box above the ceiling at the start of the string of downlighters for neutral and switch-line connection.
For power circuits in a domestic setting (sockets for example) FCU's should switch both line and neutral to ensure safe electrical isolation of the equipment. With that in mind it seems odd to me that some (not all) switched sockets (standard 3 prong 13a sockets that is) are single pole, only switching the line !, so in this case best to remove plug from the socket completely to ensure its electrically separated from the mains

 

[Spectric]

so in this case best to remove plug from the socket completely to ensure its electrically separated from the mains

Remember the neutral is connected to the main earthing terminal.

Standard light switches typically have no terminal for a neutral as its not needed,

That is until now when people want remote / smart switching and some of these require the neutral yet there are others that require no wiring at all such as some of the Quinetic items. Much easier during an install or rewire to provide for all outcomes. The days of people accepting a ceiling rose / pendant and then slap a lightshade on I think are historic, now that old ceiling rose is in the way so best just not to use them and fit jb's with wagos on the lead ready for the light fitting.

 

[Dabop]

Remember the neutral is connected to the main earthing terminal.


That is until now when people want remote / smart switching and some of these require the neutral yet there are others that require no wiring at all such as some of the Quinetic items. Much easier during an install or rewire to provide for all outcomes. The days of people accepting a ceiling rose / pendant and then slap a lightshade on I think are historic, now that old ceiling rose is in the way so best just not to use them and fit jb's with wagos on the lead ready for the light fitting.

The main reason the 'loops in the roof with droppers' was used was lower cost/less wiring over the run in TPE from the light to the switch and back again... (one TPE from lamp to lamp, with a twin wire dropper to the switch, versus a 3 wire TPE from the lamp to the switch and back again- especially since an earth or neutral isn't needed here lol)

And it doesn't apply to only batten fixtures, just the example I used said it lol

Its done with LED fixtures (single or multiple), downlights (both low voltage with drivers and directly mains driver versions) or any combination there...

Its only very recently that 'smart switches' needing a neutral at all have become readily available and cheap enough to start becoming more common

 

[Scruples]

Known as a "dual" box, not a twin

But a twin, double or 2-gang box in the rest of the UK. I've never heard of a dual box and I've been an electrician for a very long time.

 

[Scruples]

Diagram is wrong I'm afraid old chap, the fused connection units (fused switches) need a neutral, really you should not have a live there only and the neutral from the socket. Not sure how you would practically wire it that way anyway !

It's a schematic.. Not something usually drawn by a tradesman. Makes me think Dabop is a DIY dabbler as he's wrong on several levels but, he's in Australia where there may be differences in wiring. Choc block and junction boxes are all valid methods of connecting cables if they are installed properly.

 

[Mel769]

But a twin, double or 2-gang box in the rest of the UK. I've never heard of a dual box and I've been an electrician for a very long time.
[/QUOTE

It's a schematic.. Not something usually drawn by a tradesman. Makes me think Dabop is a DIY dabbler as he's wrong on several levels but, he's in Australia where there may be differences in wiring. Choc block and junction boxes are all valid methods of connecting cables if they are installed properly.

Yes but what the point of using a chock box or junction box ! Just wire into back of existing sockets. Just seems like extra work to me but then again it might be different in OZ

 

[Scruples]

Hi all,

I have a washing machine and tumble dryer under a worktop plugged into a double
Socket also under the worktop. What I would like to do is put two or a double isolated or fused switch above the work top. The cables to the socket won’t reach for me to connect to the new switches so some cable joining is required. I have searched the internet for a wiring diagram with no success, can some kind person please do me a quick sketch to guide me in the right direction.

Big thanks.

Without understanding the wiring in the sockets, ring, spur or single feed, a satisfactory solution is difficult.

 

[Scruples]

The ring main, assuming it is one, needs to remain intact, so the twin backbox becomes a connection point where the ring is extended up above the wortop, using new cables and connected to one DP switch (IN), looped across to the other DP (IN) switch and then new 2.5 mm² TWE cables down to sockets, one from each DP switch (OUT) to each socket. You will need to relocate the new sockets as the existing twin backbox won't take two single sockets. It's a bit of a job but the results will justify the work. If in doubt, get a sparky in.
The connectors in the existing backbox should be rated at 32A.

 

[Spectric]

The main reason the 'loops in the roof with droppers' was used was lower cost/less wiring over the run in TPE from the light to the switch and back again... (one TPE from lamp to lamp, with a twin wire dropper to the switch, versus a 3 wire TPE from the lamp to the switch and back again- especially since an earth or neutral isn't needed here lol)

Essentially the ceiling roses are replaced with jb's and instead of a T&E down to the switch you drop a three core & E . Now you use the Grey instead of the Blue for the neutral and Brown live with Black switched to light.

so the twin backbox becomes a connection point where

The bonus is that we have Wago connectors and no longer need that horrible chocolate block we had for decades, also if used in the right enclosure they are maintenance free.

 

[Spectric]

Choc block

Now that is truly DIY nowadays, belongs in the same place as scotch locks !

 

[Dabop]

It's a schematic.. Not something usually drawn by a tradesman. Makes me think Dabop is a DIY dabbler as he's wrong on several levels but, he's in Australia where there may be differences in wiring. Choc block and junction boxes are all valid methods of connecting cables if they are installed properly.

Well you would be wrong lol- I did my apprenticeship back in the early 1980's, and have been doing electricals since getting my trade papers back then (dealing mostly with commercial installs rather than light duty 'home sparky work'... but yes I've done some of those too...as well as getting my gridtie solar installion/design ticket back in 2004

My 'schematic' was nothing more than a drawing done in Libre Draw (the linux equivilant of Windows Paint lol)

I tended to play with more 3 phase 415v work and high voltage DC (try 1600vDC at 20kA!!!) as I did my apprenticeship with the railways before leaving them to go into commercial stuff during layofffs (getting a redundancy 6 months before I would have gained an extra years pay for 10 years service sucked)

Choc blocks and BP connectors in a junction box are acceptable for accessable junction boxes, but only Wago's are allowed in 'non acceable juctions'

Australian Au/NZ3000 standards are based on BS 7671 electrical standards, although there are minor differences (which took some getting used to) such as only 'corded appliances' use the 'new' EU colours (since the mid 1980's), fixed wiring is still in the 'old' colours here, no rings (all spurs off spurs off spurs here lol) and (very handy) light fittings and switches come with 'loop' terminals inbuilt (basically a 'spare' screw connector meaning you can make a 'loop' junction at either end (although the loop in the ceiling with droppers is by far the majority of lighting systems here https://smillieelectrical.com.au/news/how-to-wire-house-lights-in-australia/) and Aussie 'powerpoints (outlets) have a cool system- the 'standard household' powerpoint is only 10A, although many houses have a few 15A outlets, but the 10A,15A and 20A outlets are all 'partially interchangable' ie a 10A plug fits a 10A, 15A or 20A powerpoint, where the 15A plug only fits the 15A or 20A powerpoint, and the 20A plug only fits the 20A powerpoint... very handy in commercial settings lol