Two fused switches. Help

[Kev ether]

Hi all,

I have a washing machine and tumble dryer under a worktop plugged into a double
Socket also under the worktop. What I would like to do is put two or a double isolated or fused switch above the work top. The cables to the socket won’t reach for me to connect to the new switches so some cable joining is required. I have searched the internet for a wiring diagram with no success, can some kind person please do me a quick sketch to guide me in the right direction.

Big thanks.

 

[Dabop]

It depends on whether its on a ring or a spur- if its a spur already then a single fused switch can be put 'inline' with it- but if its on the ring, then its a bit more complicated wiringwise as you would have to put the outlet onto a fused spur with the ring left intact ie the ring stays intact, but separated from the outlet, and a feed from that new connection up to the fused switch and the output from the switch run back down to the outlet...

There is no easy way to make it 'two separately switched' outlets with a single double outlet, so unless you fit a pair of single outlet sockets and the feed up to the switches is split so both switches are in parallel, with TWO return feeds, one to each single outlet, as the double outlet is fed from a single source...

If you don't know how to tell what you have- then you REALLY shouldn't be playing with it in the first place...

 

[Dabop]

This is how it is wired (using the old UK colours)if it is in the new colours it should be done in those of course (well to be accurate it should all be done in new colours- but that makes it even more confusing lol as the original wiring is likely in the older colours...)

Red is now brown, black is now blue, green is now green with yellow trace and the white (or blue) switched live is grey

This diagram is done in the 'old colours' to make it easier to follow..

To be done properly and legally, if the wiring is in the old colours, then sleeve the red/black/bare or green of the old wires with short lengths of brown, blue and green sleeving, and do all new wiring in the new colours...

Of course all this should be done by a licenced electrician who knows what they are in the first place... (and should be tested afterwards to ensure the new wiring is connected properly and meets the regs and is safe...)

ETA
plus not shown above (my bad, it isn't required here in Australia and its been a while since I did any UK standards wiring lol) there should also be an earth wire run up to the new switch boxes to earth them as well- so use a length of appropriately rated 4 core cable up to the switch boxes from the original outlet position...

Here I would use this stuff with a metal backbox...

The UK would use something like this (but would require the blue neutral and black active both sleeved as grey...- some would argue that the black doesn't need to be sleeved, others do... I would, expecially if there is 'mixed standards' involved in the one junction box...)

 

[ChaiLatte]

There is no easy way to make it 'two separately switched' outlets with a single double outlet...

Just to throw an option into the mix, more on the physical side than the electrical, a twin backbox/pattress box might be a minimally intrusive method to convert a double into two singles.

https://www.screwfix.com/p/knightsb...d-steel-unfinished-back-box-35mm-5-pack/755ya

The same concept is available in surface mount or drylining.

 

[MikeJhn]

@Kev ether if you are competent please see here: https://electrical.theiet.org/media/2821/bs7671-meiwcv2.pdf

 

[Mel769]

This is how it is wired (using the old UK colours)if it is in the new colours it should be done in those of course (well to be accurate it should all be done in new colours- but that makes it even more confusing lol as the original wiring is likely in the older colours...)

Red is now brown, black is now blue, green is now green with yellow trace and the white (or blue) switched live is grey

This diagram is done in the 'old colours' to make it easier to follow..
View attachment 192402

To be done properly and legally, if the wiring is in the old colours, then sleeve the red/black/bare or green of the old wires with short lengths of brown, blue and green sleeving, and do all new wiring in the new colours...
View attachment 192403
Of course all this should be done by a licenced electrician who knows what they are in the first place... (and should be tested afterwards to ensure the new wiring is connected properly and meets the regs and is safe...)

ETA
plus not shown above (my bad, it isn't required here in Australia and its been a while since I did any UK standards wiring lol) there should also be an earth wire run up to the new switch boxes to earth them as well- so use a length of appropriately rated 4 core cable up to the switch boxes from the original outlet position...

Here I would use this stuff with a metal backbox...
View attachment 192404
The UK would use something like this (but would require the blue neutral and black active both sleeved as grey...- some would argue that the black doesn't need to be sleeved, others do... I would, expecially if there is 'mixed standards' involved in the one junction box...)
View attachment 192405

The diagram as mentioned assumes this circuit is a radial, thats unlikely for a UK kitchen circuit. If it is a ring circuit (likely 32a) then you should not wire it like this. If its a ring then probably easier to extend it to the x2 new spurs from the existing sockets, and by doing so revoming the direct link between the two existing sockets. Use 2.5mm T&E

 

[Mel769]

a twin backbox/pattress box

Known as a "dual" box, not a twin

 

[Dabop]

The diagram as mentioned assumes this circuit is a radial, thats unlikely for a UK kitchen circuit. If it is a ring circuit (likely 32a) then you should not wire it like this. If its a ring then probably easier to extend it to the x2 new spurs from the existing sockets, and by doing so revoming the direct link between the two existing sockets. Use 2.5mm T&E

Actually I showed a ring circuit- the ring is left joined on the left side of the circuit, with the twin outlets being on a pair of twin fused spurs...(the new wiring spur going up to the top to the switches, and then down to the two new single outlets on the right...)
So the ring is left fully intact (you couldn't just 'stick the switches in the original circuit' as that 'would' break the ring... bad...

 

[Mel769]

Actually I showed a ring circuit- the ring is left joined on the left side of the circuit, with the twin outlets being on a pair of twin fused spurs...(the new wiring spur going up to the top to the switches, and then down to the two new single outlets on the right...)
So the ring is left fully intact (you couldn't just 'stick the switches in the original circuit' as that 'would' break the ring... bad...

Sorry I do not understand what your talking about

 

[Dabop]

Sorry I do not understand what your talking about

Both diagrams in my second post are functionally identical (just using the 'old' and the 'new' colours)- but using the second one as it makes it clearer - the original ring circuit would be on the left (in the 'old' colours ie red/black/green')- it is left fully intact and functional- with the new 'fused spurs'' added in the new colours on the right- so yes- the ring is intact and fully functional, and all is legal and compliant...

Of course it SHOULD be done by a licenced electrician...
I could have done it myself- had I been back in the UK...
A plane ticket from Australia and back would make it an expensive job though lol

 

[Kev ether]

It depends on whether its on a ring or a spur- if its a spur already then a single fused switch can be put 'inline' with it- but if its on the ring, then its a bit more complicated wiringwise as you would have to put the outlet onto a fused spur with the ring left intact ie the ring stays intact, but separated from the outlet, and a feed from that new connection up to the fused switch and the output from the switch run back down to the outlet...

There is no easy way to make it 'two separately switched' outlets with a single double outlet, so unless you fit a pair of single outlet sockets and the feed up to the switches is split so both switches are in parallel, with TWO return feeds, one to each single outlet, as the double outlet is fed from a single source...

If you don't know how to tell what you have- then you REALLY shouldn't be playing with it in the first place...

Thank you Dabop for your reply I am more than competent in when it comes to electrical work it’s just been a long time. I wired the extension about twenty five years ago and can’t remember if it’s on a ring or spur, I was going to have a look today but other things got in the way so will have a look tomorrow. And was hoping someone could point me in the direction of any new connection boxes that wasn’t available then but maybe available today which would make things easier. Someone recommended wagos in a back box, not something we had back then and not sure about them either.

 

[Mel769]

Both diagrams in my second post are functionally identical (just using the 'old' and the 'new' colours)- but using the second one as it makes it clearer - the original ring circuit would be on the left (in the 'old' colours ie red/black/green')- it is left fully intact and functional- with the new 'fused spurs'' added in the new colours on the right- so yes- the ring is intact and fully functional, and all is legal and compliant...

Of course it SHOULD be done by a licenced electrician...
I could have done it myself- had I been back in the UK...
A plane ticket from Australia and back would make it an expensive job though lol

Ah yes its like that then, just a bit difficult to read it, the joints would be in the back of the sockets then, not elsewhere as per diagram. Anyway to the original poster, you could run individual spurs (single 2.5mm twin & earth cable) from each existing socket to each new fused spur (so you would have x 3 cables in each existing socket), or as I said earlier extend the ring to incorporate the 2 new fused spurs, if you extend the ring it must remain a ring !

 

[Kev ether]

This is how it is wired (using the old UK colours)if it is in the new colours it should be done in those of course (well to be accurate it should all be done in new colours- but that makes it even more confusing lol as the original wiring is likely in the older colours...)

Red is now brown, black is now blue, green is now green with yellow trace and the white (or blue) switched live is grey

This diagram is done in the 'old colours' to make it easier to follow..
View attachment 192402

To be done properly and legally, if the wiring is in the old colours, then sleeve the red/black/bare or green of the old wires with short lengths of brown, blue and green sleeving, and do all new wiring in the new colours...
View attachment 192403
Of course all this should be done by a licenced electrician who knows what they are in the first place... (and should be tested afterwards to ensure the new wiring is connected properly and meets the regs and is safe...)

ETA
plus not shown above (my bad, it isn't required here in Australia and its been a while since I did any UK standards wiring lol) there should also be an earth wire run up to the new switch boxes to earth them as well- so use a length of appropriately rated 4 core cable up to the switch boxes from the original outlet position...

Here I would use this stuff with a metal backbox...
View attachment 192404
The UK would use something like this (but would require the blue neutral and black active both sleeved as grey...- some would argue that the black doesn't need to be sleeved, others do... I would, expecially if there is 'mixed standards' involved in the one junction box...)
View attachment 192405

Thank you, much appreciated. I know a lot of people who bought a lot of reels of the old coloured cables when the new colours came in to effect to make it easier when working on older houses and kept some reel back in case they needed for their own homes, I wish I had done that.

 

[Kev ether]

Just to throw an option into the mix, more on the physical side than the electrical, a twin backbox/pattress box might be a minimally intrusive method to convert a double into two singles.

https://www.screwfix.com/p/knightsb...d-steel-unfinished-back-box-35mm-5-pack/755ya

The same concept is available in surface mount or drylining.

Thank you.

 

[Kev ether]

@Kev ether if you are competent please see here: https://electrical.theiet.org/media/2821/bs7671-meiwcv2.pdf

Thank you MikeJhn.

 

[Dabop]

Thank you Dabop for your reply I am more than competent in when it comes to electrical work it’s just been a long time. I wired the extension about twenty five years ago and can’t remember if it’s on a ring or spur, I was going to have a look today but other things got in the way so will have a look tomorrow. And was hoping someone could point me in the direction of any new connection boxes that wasn’t available then but maybe available today which would make things easier. Someone recommended wagos in a back box, not something we had back then and not sure about them either.

So its wired in the old BS standard colours then (ie red/black/bare earth with green sleeve fitted) to be 'legal' the new spur 'should' be in the new colours ;-) (but then it should also be done by a licenced electrician as well these days too lol)

Wago's are fine (in fact they are the only legal way to do a connection where it is inacessable!!! - so they can be done in a joint where there is no access- something no other connection is allowed to be done with...) justuse the 'proper' real ones, not the cheap knockoffs...

Personally- I'd use the original backbox as a junction box, with all the new connections done inside it with Wago's, and fit a blanking plate to it, with two new surface mount sockets right next to it

 

[Kev ether]

The diagram as mentioned assumes this circuit is a radial, thats unlikely for a UK kitchen circuit. If it is a ring circuit (likely 32a) then you should not wire it like this. If it’s a ring then probably easier to extend it to the x2 new spurs from the existing sockets, and by doing so revoming the direct link between the two existing sockets. Use 2.5mm T&E

Thank you Mel769

 

[Mel769]

Both diagrams in my second post are functionally identical (just using the 'old' and the 'new' colours)- but using the second one as it makes it clearer - the original ring circuit would be on the left (in the 'old' colours ie red/black/green')- it is left fully intact and functional- with the new 'fused spurs'' added in the new colours on the right- so yes- the ring is intact and fully functional, and all is legal and compliant...
View attachment 192406

Of course it SHOULD be done by a licenced electrician...
I could have done it myself- had I been back in the UK...
A plane ticket from Australia and back would make it an expensive job though lol

Diagram is wrong I'm afraid old chap, the fused connection units (fused switches) need a neutral, really you should not have a live there only and the neutral from the socket. Not sure how you would practically wire it that way anyway !

 

[Kev ether]

Both diagrams in my second post are functionally identical (just using the 'old' and the 'new' colours)- but using the second one as it makes it clearer - the original ring circuit would be on the left (in the 'old' colours ie red/black/green')- it is left fully intact and functional- with the new 'fused spurs'' added in the new colours on the right- so yes- the ring is intact and fully functional, and all is legal and compliant...
View attachment 192406

Of course it SHOULD be done by a licenced electrician...
I could have done it myself- had I been back in the UK...
A plane ticket from Australia and back would make it an expensive job though lol

If I win the lotto tonight I will give you a call

 

[Dabop]

Neutral isn't required (although could be added using a 5 core cable but i would simply have to be capped at the back of the new switches, so totally redundant) and as noted at the time in the edit, it should have shown an earth going up to the switches as well (not required here lol, and its been a while since I did UK wiring!!!- so I forgt to include it...)

It is how a fused switched spur works- the original backbox becomes the junction box as shown on the left- the new wiring to the two new single outlets is on the right- its a simple diagram which anyone who is halfway competant at wiring should be able to understand- if you can't then you shouldn't be even touching it in the first place...