Phil Pascoe
Established Member
+1 they're what our club uses. 
tool sharpening ...help please
- Thread starter Keithie
- Start date
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Thought I'd give an update for what I'm doing on this now, which seems to work well enough (so far).
1. I've read the intellectual arguments about burrs on tools and grinding towards the tool vs away, burr removal, 'natural burr' and 'controlled' burr and it seems to me that, at least for cutting rather than scraping tools, burr removal is more consistent and easier (for me) despite me happening to have burnishing tools. So I hone cutters. Not using tools in scraping mode yet, so that may be different.
2. I grind with the wheel running towards the tool, white alu oxide 6" wheel, re-dressing wheel only twice in 10 days so far.
3. I grind freehand, no rest, but I have very good lighting and wear a loupe, I make sure I get the angle v close to what it already is and just give a quick roll from one side to the other. I then inspect and roll the other way ifthere are facets. I dont have fingernail grinds on my tools so I dont need to 'loop' the rotation. This is easy, just needs care...takes less than a minute.
4. After grind I hone by a similar rotation movement, but back and forth a few times while circling the tool on an oilstone in a puddle of 3 in 1 oil. I've got some Liberon honing oil coming. I do this wearing a loupe in good light so Iknow the angle is close enough..then inspect. It takes maybe 20-30 seconds.
edit : after each hone I put a tiny smear of renwax (mc wax) on edges and bevel as a flow agent
5. Back to turning till edge goes, then hone again. I re-hone rather than grind each time. Usually 2-3 hones between grinds.
This isnt at all tricky, just needs care, good lighting and visual enhancement. Also saves £300 ++ on an SPE and the lower frequency of grind may, hopefully, extend life of tools.
The local pro I know says he just uses rougher than 100 grade grit on his floor mounted linisher with the belt running away from the tool which gives him a burr to cut with and he doesnt hone afaik. He has way more experience than me though!
I'm definitely not saying my way is 'right' or 'better' than anyone elses (and I could easily accept that its actually stupid or wrong for reasons I dont yet understand), just that it seems to work so far for me and is almost no incremental cost given the equip I already have.
Also, I'm only turning pine, sycamore and ash for far, mostly pine. So things may change when I let myself use more expensive / dense woods!
1. I've read the intellectual arguments about burrs on tools and grinding towards the tool vs away, burr removal, 'natural burr' and 'controlled' burr and it seems to me that, at least for cutting rather than scraping tools, burr removal is more consistent and easier (for me) despite me happening to have burnishing tools. So I hone cutters. Not using tools in scraping mode yet, so that may be different.
2. I grind with the wheel running towards the tool, white alu oxide 6" wheel, re-dressing wheel only twice in 10 days so far.
3. I grind freehand, no rest, but I have very good lighting and wear a loupe, I make sure I get the angle v close to what it already is and just give a quick roll from one side to the other. I then inspect and roll the other way ifthere are facets. I dont have fingernail grinds on my tools so I dont need to 'loop' the rotation. This is easy, just needs care...takes less than a minute.
4. After grind I hone by a similar rotation movement, but back and forth a few times while circling the tool on an oilstone in a puddle of 3 in 1 oil. I've got some Liberon honing oil coming. I do this wearing a loupe in good light so Iknow the angle is close enough..then inspect. It takes maybe 20-30 seconds.
edit : after each hone I put a tiny smear of renwax (mc wax) on edges and bevel as a flow agent
5. Back to turning till edge goes, then hone again. I re-hone rather than grind each time. Usually 2-3 hones between grinds.
This isnt at all tricky, just needs care, good lighting and visual enhancement. Also saves £300 ++ on an SPE and the lower frequency of grind may, hopefully, extend life of tools.
The local pro I know says he just uses rougher than 100 grade grit on his floor mounted linisher with the belt running away from the tool which gives him a burr to cut with and he doesnt hone afaik. He has way more experience than me though!
I'm definitely not saying my way is 'right' or 'better' than anyone elses (and I could easily accept that its actually stupid or wrong for reasons I dont yet understand), just that it seems to work so far for me and is almost no incremental cost given the equip I already have.
Also, I'm only turning pine, sycamore and ash for far, mostly pine. So things may change when I let myself use more expensive / dense woods!
lurker
Le dullard de la commune
Seems reasonable
With experience at no. 5 you will learn to hone before the edge goes.
Might be me, but I find pine and the like more difficult to turn than harder woods.
With experience at no. 5 you will learn to hone before the edge goes.
Might be me, but I find pine and the like more difficult to turn than harder woods.
I dont really know how difficult pine is, but it seems to be an excellent wood to train on.
Apart from the almost zero cost, it seems so brittle that I'm learning how thin discs can be cut (about 2mm with the wood I have) before they decide to just fall off while spinning (without any extra provocation) and how cutting even slightly too quickly can cause tiny lumps to fall out.
Been great so far for developing tool control and yesterday I even managed to make one little tree (1" height) without any tiny grains/bits falling off!
Apart from the almost zero cost, it seems so brittle that I'm learning how thin discs can be cut (about 2mm with the wood I have) before they decide to just fall off while spinning (without any extra provocation) and how cutting even slightly too quickly can cause tiny lumps to fall out.
Been great so far for developing tool control and yesterday I even managed to make one little tree (1" height) without any tiny grains/bits falling off!
Phil Pascoe
Established Member
woodpig":3r2u1py3 said:
Curious. At mine no one ever hones with anything. :? :lol:
nickjan
Member
You have already received a score of replies and as many (quality) suggestions. As one novice to another, let me share a few comments.
There is a large number of YouTube videos on sharpening. A couple of them I would recommend are:
* Brendan Stamp, Sharpening woodturning tools freehand,https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=shXPHpquMzk
* Lyle Jamieson, Lyle on sharpening lathe tools, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0zUph9zEjck&t=7s
* Mike Waldt, Tool sharpening, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RQZm3kEOIW4
While I commensurate with your reluctance to spend lots of money on grinders and jigs, the importance of sharpening can hardly be underestimated in woodturning. For that reason I invested in a sharpening system more expensive than my (second-hand) lathe: the Tormek T8 system. Although you may not care to consider this system now, exploring its features and rationale can in itself be instructive. See, e.g., http://tormek.com/en/machines/t8/index.php
There is a large number of YouTube videos on sharpening. A couple of them I would recommend are:
* Brendan Stamp, Sharpening woodturning tools freehand,https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=shXPHpquMzk
* Lyle Jamieson, Lyle on sharpening lathe tools, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0zUph9zEjck&t=7s
* Mike Waldt, Tool sharpening, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RQZm3kEOIW4
While I commensurate with your reluctance to spend lots of money on grinders and jigs, the importance of sharpening can hardly be underestimated in woodturning. For that reason I invested in a sharpening system more expensive than my (second-hand) lathe: the Tormek T8 system. Although you may not care to consider this system now, exploring its features and rationale can in itself be instructive. See, e.g., http://tormek.com/en/machines/t8/index.php
Jacob
What goes around comes around.
It doesn't follow. A sanding disc on your outboard end is a very efficient and very cheap sharpening set up. It's also extremely convenient and well placed for frequent touching up.nickjan":1ng70iqr said:
Lons
Established Member
Not everyone has a lathe with an outboard facility Jacob, neither of my 2 lathes have and without that it's not practical.Jacob":11ibl8kh said:
I've got a Tormek T7, a couple of double ended grinders with mixed wheels, countless oil, water and diamond stones and last year bought a s/h pro-edge. Though I'm pretty reasonable through years of practice with all the equipment, the Pro-edge is my go to when I'm turning. Very quick easy repeatable sharpening are my reasons, I want to spend my time turning not sharpening and all I'm doing is touching up the edge without getting those "faceted" tool faces I see so often.
As you're someone who says he struggles, my advice is to save up and buy one, the learning curve is very small. Is there a club anywhere near you where you can try out different methods?
Bob
Thanks again for the help.
I definitely agree that the volume and quality of advice I've received from folk here (who arent trying to sell me things) and from suppliers (who have a choice of products) is really excellent.
Taking my reading and advice received together it seemsto me that a foot treadle lathe with a sharpened large screwdriver, some stone from the ground in your local area, an axe and a fallen tree is all that is needed at one end of spec. Equally buying prepared wood, a premium lathe & other tools and a premium sharpening system will almost certainly make things easier...but cost more.
I think the single (almost) consensus point that I've seen on here is that most folk use a rest when sharpening tools. Frank Underwood & Percy Blandford (I have the 1976 & 1981 versions of their books respectively) make no mention if this that I can find and indeed an intro training course I did at Axminster many years ago advocated sharpening without a rest. Keith Rowley's book obviously advocates a rest and has a simple design.
There seems to me to be no absolute 'right' or 'wrong' approach so long as the tool is sharpened in a way that means it can perform its task.
I probably (hopefully) will have a 40+ year turning hobby, so no doubt I'll try almost every current and future method in time! The first addition I'll make to my sharpening repertoire will be a rest .. I cant think if any coherent reasons why I shouldnt (just need to get an appropriate wing nut!)
Many thanks again to everyone for the help & advice so far.
cheers
Keith
I definitely agree that the volume and quality of advice I've received from folk here (who arent trying to sell me things) and from suppliers (who have a choice of products) is really excellent.
Taking my reading and advice received together it seemsto me that a foot treadle lathe with a sharpened large screwdriver, some stone from the ground in your local area, an axe and a fallen tree is all that is needed at one end of spec. Equally buying prepared wood, a premium lathe & other tools and a premium sharpening system will almost certainly make things easier...but cost more.
I think the single (almost) consensus point that I've seen on here is that most folk use a rest when sharpening tools. Frank Underwood & Percy Blandford (I have the 1976 & 1981 versions of their books respectively) make no mention if this that I can find and indeed an intro training course I did at Axminster many years ago advocated sharpening without a rest. Keith Rowley's book obviously advocates a rest and has a simple design.
There seems to me to be no absolute 'right' or 'wrong' approach so long as the tool is sharpened in a way that means it can perform its task.
I probably (hopefully) will have a 40+ year turning hobby, so no doubt I'll try almost every current and future method in time! The first addition I'll make to my sharpening repertoire will be a rest .. I cant think if any coherent reasons why I shouldnt (just need to get an appropriate wing nut!)
Many thanks again to everyone for the help & advice so far.
cheers
Keith
Jacob
What goes around comes around.
It is possible without but much easier with!Keithie":38gx1a4j said:
A lot of these basics don't get mentioned much in the old books, (particularly sharpening) probably because they are taken for granted - just a normal part of the working environment.
Once these simple processes are forgotten then along come the gadget merchants. :roll: Their first objectives being to persuade people that these things are difficult and that help must be bought.
selectortone
Still waking up not dead in the morning
There is a recent thread about sharpening that has some useful info:
more-sharpening-woes-t98391.html
more-sharpening-woes-t98391.html
Thanks ...the spe or cbn wheel do seem to be a good, but premium, way of progressing.
There's a lot to be learned from the old ways as well though.....Underwood has 16 pages on sharpening (with discussion of slip stones, burrs, honing etc as well as the basics) and Blandford's more general book gives emphasis to sandstone over engineer wheels. I quite like the idea of learning the oldways (eg beads with a skew chisel rather than just buying a beading tool) first then I may try to cadge a sneaky go on other folks equipment in time as well before deciding whether to buy.
There's a lot to be learned from the old ways as well though.....Underwood has 16 pages on sharpening (with discussion of slip stones, burrs, honing etc as well as the basics) and Blandford's more general book gives emphasis to sandstone over engineer wheels. I quite like the idea of learning the oldways (eg beads with a skew chisel rather than just buying a beading tool) first then I may try to cadge a sneaky go on other folks equipment in time as well before deciding whether to buy.
So I think I can get my tools quite sharp (enough to cut paper) with my alu oxide wheel and oilstone ...but I suspect I'm still going wrong with the 'little and often' bit ...mostly the 'often' I'm now thinking.
So, yet another sharpening question....how often is often?
I realise it depends on lots of things ....but typically are folk re-sharpening their bowl/spindle gouges every 5 minutes (or less) of cutting or not so much.I've been leaving it for 15 mins or so...sometimes more.
Having thought about this in a different way ..if the peripheral speed of the piece on the lathe is about 18mph then in 5 minutes (1/12 of an hour) the tool will have cut for 1.5miles ! ...if thats right then it seems quite a long way to have cut through wood ...and if I'm leaving it for 15mins then even though a tool may bewell sharpened, almost 5 miles of cutting is going to take an edge off!
I have no idea if this is a sensible way to think about it ...but really all I'm asking is how often is often (in terms of actually cutting time).
thanks again...Keith
So, yet another sharpening question....how often is often?
I realise it depends on lots of things ....but typically are folk re-sharpening their bowl/spindle gouges every 5 minutes (or less) of cutting or not so much.I've been leaving it for 15 mins or so...sometimes more.
Having thought about this in a different way ..if the peripheral speed of the piece on the lathe is about 18mph then in 5 minutes (1/12 of an hour) the tool will have cut for 1.5miles ! ...if thats right then it seems quite a long way to have cut through wood ...and if I'm leaving it for 15mins then even though a tool may bewell sharpened, almost 5 miles of cutting is going to take an edge off!
I have no idea if this is a sensible way to think about it ...but really all I'm asking is how often is often (in terms of actually cutting time).
thanks again...Keith
CHJ
Established Member
Stop analysing it, there is no definitive answer, every piece of wood you pick up will behave differently and have different cutting characteristics dependant upon how you are cutting with or across the grain, no one other than yourself can get a feel for how you are presenting the tool, how acute the cutting edge is or if you are rubbing the bevel to its best performance, etc. etc.
Just stop fretting about the tools and cut some wood, if the tool is not slicing through the wood without you having to press it into the wood then it is not sharp enough, the only force you should need is to hold it against the rest and control its progress along the line of the cut, if you have to push it's not sharp enough.
Practise cutting the wood, the tool needs will come as a result of that experience, until you have got some mastery of the wood handling then you won't be able to refine your tool preparation.
Cutting time is not the criteria, how the tool feels in the cut and how easily it progresses through the wood is the criteria to tell you if it would perform better if you sharpened it.
Stop fussing about touching up the edge between sharpening's on the wheel, chances are that as someone new to turning you are more likely to form micro bevels on the tool that will either present as blunt or cause the tool to dive into the wood as they prevent proper bevel contact, you may even be doing this with your oilstone, just because the edge is sharp does not mean it's the correct profile for bevel rubbing gouge use.
After ten plus years of turning I doubt there at a couple of jobs a year where I resort to touching a tool edge other than on the grinder.
Just stop fretting about the tools and cut some wood, if the tool is not slicing through the wood without you having to press it into the wood then it is not sharp enough, the only force you should need is to hold it against the rest and control its progress along the line of the cut, if you have to push it's not sharp enough.
Practise cutting the wood, the tool needs will come as a result of that experience, until you have got some mastery of the wood handling then you won't be able to refine your tool preparation.
Cutting time is not the criteria, how the tool feels in the cut and how easily it progresses through the wood is the criteria to tell you if it would perform better if you sharpened it.
Stop fussing about touching up the edge between sharpening's on the wheel, chances are that as someone new to turning you are more likely to form micro bevels on the tool that will either present as blunt or cause the tool to dive into the wood as they prevent proper bevel contact, you may even be doing this with your oilstone, just because the edge is sharp does not mean it's the correct profile for bevel rubbing gouge use.
After ten plus years of turning I doubt there at a couple of jobs a year where I resort to touching a tool edge other than on the grinder.
Lons
Established Member
:lol: :lol: :lol:Keithie":29p2zg3i said:understood (& self evidently correct!) ... more time turning & less time with the ******* questions
Back from the inlaws tomorrow so I'll have access to my lathe again!
duncanh
Established Member
Like Chas says, stop over thinking it. It's not rocket science and the best thing you can do is practice the turning. Forget the oilstone for sharpening - the tools should be plenty sharp enough straight from the grinding wheel.
Probably the best thing you could do is find another turner nearby who can take you through the basics, either a professional course, another amateur who has plenty of time and knows what they're doing or go to a turning club
Probably the best thing you could do is find another turner nearby who can take you through the basics, either a professional course, another amateur who has plenty of time and knows what they're doing or go to a turning club
lol...well, I'm happy to accept you're right based on experience etc ...but I like grinding with my white wheel and oilstone honing.
Having been in Wales for the last week I've now also picked up some nice bits of slate ...not yellowstone, but some purplish blue coping stone slate and a bluish green hearthstone piece. The hearthstone seems quite a bit finer. Cetrainly for flat edged blades they seem great ...possibly around 10k grit ...maybe that's more fine than I need for a roughing gouge ?
I also took the dog for a walk today through a tiny quarried area on the way up to an old hill fort and picked up an intereting piece of some sort of gritty ironstone. Cuts down easily on the grinder so I might try to square it up and use that as an intermediate grade
I did have a close look (x20 optics) at the edges on the spindle and roughing gouges and it's true that there are definitely sections of uneven bevelling ...but they cut wood nicely enough.
Made my first handle today in cherry (after some practice in horrid green knotty cedar to get a shape that suited my fat hands) for the long hole auger... came out better than expected ...currently soaking up some tung oil .. going to try and make a ferrule from an old copper water tank (probably not all of it!) for the fun of it
Please dont get me wrong ... It's not that I'm disregarding the given advice ...I defintely respect it and recognise its value (ie for sharpening, spe / wheels & jigs/rests are more efficient, more accurate, and give more consistenty repeatable edges)... but I enjoy trying to do stuff a primitive way .. they didnt have sorby pro edge or cbn wheels 100 years ago ...they had giant lumps of stone mounted on oversize pieces of cast iron ...at least they did in parts of Wales like Ceredigion!
When I tire of stones and wheels I'll buy an SPE of course (unless tech moves on again) ...but not till the fun of using found materials has passed
Oh ... rehoning every 2 and 3 mins of cutting now for me (in cherry and in green red cedar) ...about every 5-10 mins of elapsed time at the lathe ...definitely depends on the wood.
Also, I'm seeing the pro woodturner/worker in our village (who may be on here for all I know!) in the New Year (their Christmas order book from Harrogate & Glasgow was a bit burdensome..working till 3 & 4am it seems!) ...so that might be a good chance to learn even more!
cheers
Keithie
Having been in Wales for the last week I've now also picked up some nice bits of slate ...not yellowstone, but some purplish blue coping stone slate and a bluish green hearthstone piece. The hearthstone seems quite a bit finer. Cetrainly for flat edged blades they seem great ...possibly around 10k grit ...maybe that's more fine than I need for a roughing gouge ?
I also took the dog for a walk today through a tiny quarried area on the way up to an old hill fort and picked up an intereting piece of some sort of gritty ironstone. Cuts down easily on the grinder so I might try to square it up and use that as an intermediate grade
I did have a close look (x20 optics) at the edges on the spindle and roughing gouges and it's true that there are definitely sections of uneven bevelling ...but they cut wood nicely enough.
Made my first handle today in cherry (after some practice in horrid green knotty cedar to get a shape that suited my fat hands) for the long hole auger... came out better than expected ...currently soaking up some tung oil .. going to try and make a ferrule from an old copper water tank (probably not all of it!) for the fun of it
Please dont get me wrong ... It's not that I'm disregarding the given advice ...I defintely respect it and recognise its value (ie for sharpening, spe / wheels & jigs/rests are more efficient, more accurate, and give more consistenty repeatable edges)... but I enjoy trying to do stuff a primitive way .. they didnt have sorby pro edge or cbn wheels 100 years ago ...they had giant lumps of stone mounted on oversize pieces of cast iron ...at least they did in parts of Wales like Ceredigion!
When I tire of stones and wheels I'll buy an SPE of course (unless tech moves on again) ...but not till the fun of using found materials has passed
Oh ... rehoning every 2 and 3 mins of cutting now for me (in cherry and in green red cedar) ...about every 5-10 mins of elapsed time at the lathe ...definitely depends on the wood.
Also, I'm seeing the pro woodturner/worker in our village (who may be on here for all I know!) in the New Year (their Christmas order book from Harrogate & Glasgow was a bit burdensome..working till 3 & 4am it seems!) ...so that might be a good chance to learn even more!
cheers
Keithie
Phil Pascoe
Established Member
I know possibly sixty turners. The vast majority never hone anything, and after long discussions with many of them in fact probably only two or three hone anything at all and that is a skew once in a blue moon.
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