To buy old saws or new? Is the question.

[NorthernSteve]

I regularly see old Disston saws (and other quality makes) for sale at cheap prices <£10. Shiny new saws with nice wooden handles run into the hundreds of pounds. Does one get what one pays for with new saws, or is there an element of vanity in having the expensive ones that determines the price? Is it sensible to buy quality old saws and to have them profesisionally sharpened?
Your erudite responses appreciated.
Thanks

 

[deema]

A saw is defined by the quality of the steel and how well it’s been sharpened. I’d buy an old saw. I wrote this a number of years ago you might find helpful.

https://www.ukworkshop.co.uk/thread...and-re-teething-of-a-99p-saw-completed.98494/

 

[LancsRick]

There's a lot to be said for the build quality and materials of old tools (e.g. Saws and planes). The catch is being prepared to fettle them back to health.

So yes, you could get them professionally done, or there are plenty of guides on filing and setting teeth to be able to restore it yourself. Sometimes the restoration is the most rewarding part - I've got more hand planes than I'll ever use but I like rescuing them and bringing them back to life!

 

[NorthernSteve]

A saw is defined by the quality of the steel and how well it’s been sharpened. I’d buy an old saw. I wrote this a number of years ago you might find helpful.

https://www.ukworkshop.co.uk/thread...and-re-teething-of-a-99p-saw-completed.98494/

Thanks Deema an interesting read and a good excuse to buy some shatpening kit..

 

[NorthernSteve]

There's a lot to be said for the build quality and materials of old tools (e.g. Saws and planes). The catch is being prepared to fettle them back to health.

So yes, you could get them professionally done, or there are plenty of guides on filing and setting teeth to be able to restore it yourself. Sometimes the restoration is the most rewarding part - I've got more hand planes than I'll ever use but I like rescuing them and bringing them back to life!

Thanks LancsRick, from your name you maybe near me - Summerseat, Bury..

 

[Orraloon]

Old saws are just so much better made and a good one is easier to use. A wood handle that fits your hand rather than a plastic lump. The restoration of a saw is not usually all that hard. Bit of cleaning up and sharpening. If there is someone local that sharpens at a good rate then by all means use them to start with but its not all that hard to learn it yourself and is a skill that will serve you well in future. The appeal for me to start with was getting a quality tool (saw, chisel or plane) at a rock bottom price but the restoration process itself is rewarding and gives you a better insight into just what makes that tool work. Most of my hand tools came from the rust hunt. Of course the hunt itself is another indulgence.
Regards
John

 

[RobNichols]

Is it sensible to buy quality old saws and to have them profesisionally sharpened?

No!

However, it's not the new/old debate that I'd take issue with. It's the professional sharpening bit.

As with most things to do with hand tool woodworking, the key to getting the most out of the tools is maintaining them well; and the key to that is usually keeping them sharp.

If you want to get the best out of traditional panel and back saws, you need to learn to sharpen them.

Learning to sharpen a saw does not just result in you having a sharp saw that cuts straight, but it is also the best way to gain appreciation and understanding of how teeth angles and offset affect the way the saw operates.

And the best thing about it is that it's not particularly difficult. You can get a lot done with a baton with a slot cut down its length, a vice and a triangular file.

I'd suggest starting with a second hand 7tpi rip panel saw. The Aussie Woodshed chap is producing some interesting starter videos around saw sharpening which I think would be a good place to start for information about how to sharpen:



I'd start by simply sharpening the teeth for rip. Just taking an old rip saw, making some cuts, and then sharpening the teeth and sawing again can be a really satisfying experience.

The simplest sharpen is rip with the side of the tooth facing forward vertically. That means holding the triangular file such that the file side facing the saw handle is vertical (with the top edge of the saw held horizontal in a vice)

Then try sharpening a crosscut saw. That's more complicated because the teeth need to be cut at alternating angles and with more of a slope than rip teeth. But it really isn't that hard.

Then go on to settings the teeth. With a sawset it really isn't difficult. More repetitious and fiddly than anything else.

If you then look at jointing (levelling the top of the teeth before sharpening) you'll have the basic skills.

Once you've got the basics you can start experimenting with different configurations. I think you'll then appreciate the benefit of having a number of saws configured for different cuts.

Then I think you'll get the best out of the hand saw experience

And one last thing, getting a good table lamp and some magnifying glasses can make all the difference. Keeping track of which tooth is next to be filed is a nightmare if you can't see what you're doing.

 

[Jameshow]

A good old saw is a joy to use.
Cuts through wood with a weight and satisfaction unlike anything else.

However ini site you'll pick up a hardpoint saw, but they feel like toys in comparison!

 

[William2020]

There’s some great advice above.
Like many, I’ve had a lot of fun finding, cleaning up and sharpening old saws. I completely agree about building the skills for sharpening your own (on a recent visit to a friend’s house, I was able to help him bring his grandfather’s saw back to life).
I loathe the hard point/throwaway saws, although I do have some for site work. I find the handles on old saws much more comfortable than modern ones.
However, in a compromise, I’ve found the re-sharpenable ‘traditional skew back’ saws from Spear and Jackson (9500 and 9515) are very good. The handles aren’t as comfortable as an old saw but they’re much more pleasant than a plastic one. They are not expensive - usually the equivalent of 1-2 throwaway hard point saws (a quick check on a large international shopping website has them listed for around £16 and £25).
I would certainly get a couple of old ones to learn how to sharpen. If you start to descend down a rabbit hole on a quest for the ‘perfect’ project saw, it might save you time/energy/etc if you try one of the S&J saws…
As others have said, there is a lot of fun in the ‘hunt’ though…

 

[Jacob]

...

And one last thing, getting a good table lamp and some magnifying glasses can make all the difference. Keeping track of which tooth is next to be filed is a nightmare if you can't see what you're doing.

Yes to the above but no to the magnifying glasses.
If your sight is that bad, or saw teeth too small, then peering to see each gullet can be really tedious.
Instead apply black felt tip over the tips. Then each freshly filed gullet shows up clearly and you can feel your way into alternate ones. Then just need to maintain a controlled angle and even stroke and whip along the blade as fast as you can!
If the blade is straight it's often a case of just sharpen and go.
Dust off loose rust and apply linseed oil all over is good.
Then polish it by using it - it only takes a few passes to get low friction without bright shiny steel - if it was really rusty you end up with a brown but shiny surface.
https://www.ukworkshop.co.uk/threads/hand-saw-buying-advice.127121/#post-1416285

 

[Fitzroy]

I’m in the old saw gang, just make sure the one you buy has a decent amount of blade depth left. I see many on sale with lovely handles but little depth left in the plate for sharpening.

 

[Sam Kilby]

when I was doing my apprenticeship I bought a few saw files, a saw set, and got a little setup together to sharpen hand saws. You might also want to buy or make one of those funny screwdrivers for the handle screws. Split driver ?

I learnt how to do it, and will honestly say it’s a pain in the backside. I might pick it back up when I retire as a hobbyist ! I’m all for buying old and refurbing personally, but shops I’ve worked for have had for example a set of brand new lie Nielsen backsaws as the shop set and they are absolutely superb. I won’t be replacing mine with them though, unless I win the lottery. They also still need sharpening.

There’s nothing wrong at all with buying old saws and taking them to a saw doctor.. if you can find one locally ! Some offer postal services too. I think the last one I took was £12 for a fine tooth, angled sharpen on a dovetail saw. With the best will in the world how likely are you to pay this more than once a year ? I suppose perhaps take one for a sharpen, and work out how long it’s lasted you..

How much is your time worth ? Do you enjoy the satisfaction of learning these skills and employing them, or would you rather spend your time blunting the saw practicing dovetails or making furniture ? It’s also worth bearing in mind you might (as I did) spend anywhere from half a day upwards sanding/possibly refinishing handles, cleaning up saw plates, messing around with screw lengths or re mushrooming (peening ?? Never much of a metalworker) handle tightness etc.

I will of course caveat the above by saying I don’t think the same is true of for example hand planes or chisels, which in my opinion it’s important to fettle to your needs, and of course learn how to and have in house facilities to sharpen. But to me this is because they need much more frequent sharpening, and for example fettling a plane to flat, fettling all the mating faces/frog settings etc gives you a more thorough understanding of the use of a plane and how to set it up properly. I would argue the same is not really true of a saw, as long as it’s sharp and has the appropriate set.
I bought old, fettled everything to how I wanted it, learnt how to sharpen, but I’ll continue to send them away for sharpening.

 

[Agent_zed]

Playing devils advocate - other than the allure of having painstakingly restored and sharpened an old tool I can't in most cases see the point of sharpening old saws.

Unless you are making artisan high quality pieces that you want to be able to saw you used old tools, is it actually going to make much difference. You aren't going to be relying on the saw to leave a final surface in most cases so it doesn't matter that much. It might save you 10secs with a chisel but you'll have spent 30mins sharpening the saw, assuming you are actually any good at sharpening or setting teeth.

At the end of the day it's up to you and comes down to a balance of time and cost. Is your hand sharpened old saw actually going to cut any better than a £15 Bahco or is it because you convince yourself that it cuts better. Is the steel on the old tool actually that much better?

That said, I do agree that wooden handled tools are much nicer and environmentally speaking it is better to reuse rather than buy. I certainly do rehandle and sharpen old chisels etc and I've got a lovely claw hammer I rehandled. But those are much faster and easier to do.

 

[Jacob]

......

Unless you are making artisan high quality pieces that you want to be able to saw you used old tools, is it actually going to make much difference. You aren't going to be relying on the saw to leave a final surface in most cases so it doesn't matter that much. .....

Usually you don't have to restore, it's just sharpen and go. The finish doesn't count and a sharp saw cuts faster and straighter. For a finer finish e.g for DTs you use a finer saw 15 tpi etc.
I don't see the point of buying new saws at all when there are so many old ones around and so cheap.
I also feel that some old saws are easier to sharpen- maybe difference in the metal I don't know.

 

[Agent_zed]

I also feel that some old saws are easier to sharpen- maybe difference in the metal I don't know.

If it is easy to file then the metal isn't very hard. This is part of the problem. To sharpen a tool you need something that is harder than the tool you are sharpening. In this case if you are using a metal file to sharpen metal saw teeth it begs the question how hard is the metal the teeth are made of.

From my limited understanding saws that are re-sharpenable have teeth that aren't hardened (or at least nowhere near as much as a hard point saw). Sure you can re-sharpen them but they also go blunt much quicker.

I'd be interested to actually see the difference for myself. I'm not sure I believe that I'd cut any better with a re-sharpened saw than any other sharp saw.

 

[Orraloon]

If it is easy to file then the metal isn't very hard. This is part of the problem. To sharpen a tool you need something that is harder than the tool you are sharpening. In this case if you are using a metal file to sharpen metal saw teeth it begs the question how hard is the metal the teeth are made of.

From my limited understanding saws that are re-sharpenable have teeth that aren't hardened (or at least nowhere near as much as a hard point saw). Sure you can re-sharpen them but they also go blunt much quicker.

I'd be interested to actually see the difference for myself. I'm not sure I believe that I'd cut any better with a re-sharpened saw than any other sharp saw.

You are right it the fact that a hard point saw has harder teeth and will stay sharp for longer but that is as far as your point goes. Metal may not be as hard as a file but its hard enough to cut the hardest wood. There is always a tradeoff between hardness and ease of sharpening. Hardpoint saws just forgot the tradeoff. You are stuck with the tooth shape and set from the factory. That is aimed to cover all sawing situations so is average at most but not good at any one task and of course when it does go dull its in the bin. When it comes to fine work like dovetails and tenons then the only hard points that will do the job would be Japanese saws. That said I do have a hard point for rough work.
Regards
John

 

[paulrbarnard]

If it is easy to file then the metal isn't very hard. This is part of the problem. To sharpen a tool you need something that is harder than the tool you are sharpening. In this case if you are using a metal file to sharpen metal saw teeth it begs the question how hard is the metal the teeth are made of.

From my limited understanding saws that are re-sharpenable have teeth that aren't hardened (or at least nowhere near as much as a hard point saw). Sure you can re-sharpen them but they also go blunt much quicker.

I'd be interested to actually see the difference for myself. I'm not sure I believe that I'd cut any better with a re-sharpened saw than any other sharp saw.

I have a range of cross cut and rip saws of various lengths and tooth counts. They are useful for different jobs. The problem with modern saws is they all tend to be general purpose. If you are sawing a long rip with a 4pt then it needs a good length of plate to maximise your input and reduce fatigue. Similarly a crosscut in a small board benifits from different tooth profile, lower tooth count and you are probably sawing at the bench rather than on tresses so a shorter blade is more comfortable.

 

[Jacob]

You are right it the fact that a hard point saw has harder teeth and will stay sharp for longer but that is as far as your point goes. Metal may not be as hard as a file but its hard enough to cut the hardest wood. There is always a tradeoff between hardness and ease of sharpening. Hardpoint saws just forgot the tradeoff. You are stuck with the tooth shape and set from the factory. That is aimed to cover all sawing situations so is average at most but not good at any one task and of course when it does go dull its in the bin. When it comes to fine work like dovetails and tenons then the only hard points that will do the job would be Japanese saws. That said I do have a hard point for rough work.
Regards
John

My old saws (various - Sorby, Ibbotson, S&J) seem to sharpen easily so if this means softer metal that's OK because it also means sharper saws and a pleasure to use.
OTH my S&J "Spearior" seems difficult and I don't bother using it. It might as well be hard point - it certainly feels that way.
It's always a compromise.

 

[Fitzroy]

I have a range of cross cut and rip saws of various lengths and tooth counts. They are useful for different jobs. The problem with modern saws is they all tend to be general purpose. If you are sawing a long rip with a 4pt then it needs a good length of plate to maximise your input and reduce fatigue. Similarly a crosscut in a small board benifits from different tooth profile, lower tooth count and you are probably sawing at the bench rather than on tresses so a shorter blade is more comfortable.

This. I like different saws for different jobs, and old saws I can tailor to my needs. My fave saw is my 1908 ex military air arm, sharpened rip to 4TPI, it eats through a 2"thick board with ease, trying to make that cut with a generic hardpoint saw would be painful.

 

[Agent_zed]

I have a range of cross cut and rip saws of various lengths and tooth counts. They are useful for different jobs. The problem with modern saws is they all tend to be general purpose. If you are sawing a long rip with a 4pt then it needs a good length of plate to maximise your input and reduce fatigue. Similarly a crosscut in a small board benifits from different tooth profile, lower tooth count and you are probably sawing at the bench rather than on tresses so a shorter blade is more comfortable.

I've got a table saw, bandsaw, mitre/chop saw, jigsaw, router, multi-tool and circular saw, and would suspect most of us here have the same or more.

I get the allure of hand sawing a piece of lumber with a quality wood handled saw and crafting it into something, but these handsaws were from a time when the alternative machines didn't exist or were vastly too expensive to the average person.

If someone has the time and desire to handsharpen a ripsaw to cut down a board to the required size then I won't knock it, but I can't see a lot of people reaching for the rip saw for anything but the smallest of cuts these days. I would perhaps cut 2ft max if it was just one cut and only if it was quicker (or quieter in some instances) to grab a saw than setup the table saw.

Tennon saws I could see more of a reason for having a really nice one that can be resharpened.

I know that sounds lazy and defeatist to a certain extent, but the reality for most of us is that we only have so much time to get something done, and sharpening multiple saws to then take 10x as long to size a piece of wood for a project is probably more time than we have.