Thoughts on stair design & construction.

[MikeG.]

I'll be building a staircase shortly, and am just starting to think about it. I could do with a little input from those who do this more often.

The stair will be a cut string. That's certain. What's up for grabs is how much of the stair is natural timber, and how much is painted.......and that has a big say in the details. For instance, if the riser is oak, it will be a veneer (MDF or ply? Do you guys use MDF for risers?). If it is a veneered board, how do you make a good job of the junction with the stringer? I don't want to just stick a moulding over that, but I don't see much option. If the riser is veneered, it's hard to see how the cut string isn't to be oak. Indeed, the riser and the string, as far as I can see, pretty much have to be the same finish.......is that right? So that would mean that if this was a mixture of oak and painted timber, the only things that could be oak would be treads, newels and handrails (maybe ballusters too).

If the on-show string is oak, does the one against the wall also have to be oak? That would be a straight string, housed out in the normal way.........or would it? Is there an argument for using a cut string there too, and simply scribing the treads and risers to the wall? If I did that, and had oak treads, are these just screwed and pelleted to the string given that there will be no ballusters that side to hide fixings.

Newels. There will be 3....one at the bottom, and two at the landing. Are they always the same? I'm thinking of something a little fancy at the bottom, and quite a bit simpler upstairs. Any photos of fancy period-style newels would be handy, particularly if they have some carving or more complex mouldings.

One thing this stair isn't is a modern steel-and-glass design. This is a very traditional stair in a period setting. My wife is concerned about there being too much wood, but doesn't want it to be all painted. Any thoughts on the matter would be most welcome.

 

[Just4Fun]

Is there an argument for using a cut string there too, and simply scribing the treads and risers to the wall? If I did that, and had oak treads, are these just screwed and pelleted to the string given that there will be no ballusters that side to hide fixings.

I built our stairs with cut strings and scribed the treads and risers to the wall. I then decided it looked awful and planted some trim over the joint.

Newels. There will be 3....one at the bottom, and two at the landing. Are they always the same?

I have 4 newels: at the top, bottom and 2 intermediate 90-degree turns. The bottom two, which are the only ones visible from the hall, are the same. The other 2 are both different. I think it makes a difference if the top newels are visible from the hall. If so, maybe they should all be the same.

This is a very traditional stair in a period setting.

If you are replacing an existing stair that might impact your design. Mine was complicated by the 2 turns on the stairs. When I removed the old stairs the job became further complicated by trying to work around the structure of a cupboard underneath the stairs and also trying to minimise the making good required because the wall is panelled and difficult to match. This needed some design changes and the whole things was a compromise. I opted to concentrate on getting all risers to be the same height (certainly not the case before) and then working with what panelling I could salvage to make good afterwards. The trade-off was having to have the 2 turns a different design, one with 2 steps and one with a single step. The lesson is to be prepared to modify your plans when you rip the old stairs out and see what you are working with.

 

[MikeG.]

No, there's no old stair. There is a temporary stair I made from 9x2s. It's a straight flight against a flat wall, open to the hall on the other side. This couldn't be a simpler stair.

Is your stair painted or showing a timber finish? A photo of the cut string would be great, if you have one.

 

[HOJ]

This is one I made about 10 years ago, so some of my methods are a bit vague in my mind now.

The joint between the riser and cut stringer is a sort of rebated mitre, though i used solid Oak for these, cant see why veneered ply/mdf wouldn't work.

The treads have a planted on piece on the ends over the cut string, with a mitered corner to meet the front edge, so you don't see end grain on the side.

I will have to have a look through my archived drawings to see if I have any more detailing.

 

[MikeG.]

Thanks HOJ. That junction between riser and cut string would be interesting to see up close. Or a sketch of it would be great.

 

[HOJ]

Mike, interestingly I have no drawings of my methods, that I can find, for the junction of the stringer and riser, I have just drawn up the some details to give you an idea as to how I would have done it at the time.

Hope this helps.

Paul

 

[MikeG.]

Thanks Paul, brilliant.

 

[Just4Fun]

Is your stair painted or showing a timber finish? A photo of the cut string would be great, if you have one.

My stairs are painted. I don't have any photos that show the strings and they are hidden now so can't take one, sorry.

 

[Mike Jordan]

Hi Mike
I suggest a quick look at Riley's Manual of carpentry & Joinery chapter 16. It shows traditional examples from both ends of the spectrum, from good quality to stately home standards. It shows two ways of doing the mitre you have already seen. Pages 431 & 438 seem to show the extremes. I've only ever made one of the more modest cut strings, the bracketed string looks like a nightmare.
My preference in appearance terms is an open rise flight with carpet on each tread, conventional strings, and drop newels. I devised a simple method of concealed fixing for the carpet which works very well.
Before the regs changed I made a design which involved two carriages approx 180mm X 65 with shaped blocks set into the top surface to take the treads (very 1960s) but popular with cottage renovation customers.
The good news is that the book is is now on line FOC.
Mike.

 

[MikeG.]

Thanks Mike.

This stair will definitely have risers. Having an open rise isn't traditional in a cottage, and we're going to have understairs storage.

Nightmare or not, I'm heading towards a bracketed cut string, I think. It might even be a lightly carved bracket. I'll see if I can find the book you mention.

ETA.......found it. It's brilliant.

 

[rafezetter]

Mike, interestingly I have no drawings of my methods, that I can find, for the junction of the stringer and riser, I have just drawn up the some details to give you an idea as to how I would have done it at the time.


Hope this helps.

Paul

I've never made or had anything to do with making a staircase so keep that in mind, but I was going to ask if it was more trouble than it was worth to mitre that joint - but the above solution for a man of Mike's skills seems pretty straightforward.

As for the question of "too much wood" I'd say yes, and yes to painting / staining the risers for two reasons, one to break up the amount of wood and two for safety as it helps define each tread for your feet. With older people and those with poorer eyesight, defining the treads in a sea of oak might be tricky.

Hopefully how the painted / stained risers blends with it's surroundings is simple to arrange but if not, can the stairs be made open instead of with risers? If they have no balutsters, the "openness" of that and a simple handrail would blend quite well with the open staircase look. I guess that depends on the surrounding architecture.

https://www.google.com/search?q=oak+ope ... 20&bih=906

 

[Mike Jordan]

The book has a few little quirks as well, the illustration on page 431 shows the risers grooved into the top face of the treads! I don't think that would work very well and assembly would be tricky on a normal stair, I've wondered if this makes the mitred risers easier to fit. My concern would be that no mechanical joint seems to exist between the cut string and the risers/treads, only the glue blocks.
Mike.

 

[MikeG.]

........As for the question of "too much wood" I'd say yes, and yes to painting / staining the risers for two reasons, one to break up the amount of wood and two for safety as it helps define each tread for your feet. With older people and those with poorer eyesight, defining the treads in a sea of oak might be tricky.

Hopefully how the painted / stained risers blends with it's surroundings is simple to arrange

Good points. However, the more I look at the details, the harder it is to imagine how mixing paint and wood could work well on a cut string stair. If the riser is painted, then the either the string needs to be painted, or the bracket (if there is one). The latter would be an almighty faff.

but if not, can the stairs be made open instead of with risers? If they have no balutsters, the "openness" of that and a simple handrail would blend quite well with the open staircase look. I guess that depends on the surrounding architecture......

No, no. That's not the look we're after, and we're having understairs cupboards.

 

[MikeG.]

The book has a few little quirks as well, the illustration on page 431 shows the risers grooved into the top face of the treads!

Yeah, I saw that. It's weird. I'd expect to let the riser into a groove in the underside of the tread above. There is also a strange detail with a moulding t&g'd into the edge of the string, rather than planted on the face.

I've wondered if this makes the mitred risers easier to fit. My concern would be that no mechanical joint seems to exist between the cut string and the risers/treads, only the glue blocks.

Hmmm......That's a point. Mine is only a narrow stair, but I'd still expect to get some strength from the riser to stiffen up the tread. I guess they are relying more on the central supporting piece they describe running from floor to landing, and propping the treads mid-tread.

 

[Phil Pascoe]

I suppose if you didn't want to paint anything, but still preferred a visual break between the treads and risers the risers could be dyed a shade or two darker (it's unlikely it would wear through on the riser). They could be dyed before assembly so the whole could be oiled/osmo'd/varnished or whatever afterwards without having to work around anything.

 

[MikeG.]

Or use a different timber, I suppose. Again, that would have to wrap around onto the string by having the bracket (if that's what I eventually decide to have) the same. You can't just change colour at a corner.

 

[HOJ]

Just as an aside, this is an open tread stair I built for a listed barn, originally it was to be all closed in, but we decided to move it away from the corner wall, and rather than it looking like a sea of wood made as open tread.

 

[AJB Temple]

I would avoid veneer on the risers if I were you. It's fine if you have a no shoes rule, but if people tramp about the house in shoes the risers get kick marks and this is a right pain to deal with on veneer.

 

[MikeG.]

I would avoid veneer on the risers if I were you. It's fine if you have a no shoes rule, but if people tramp about the house in shoes the risers get kick marks and this is a right pain to deal with on veneer.

You'd use solid timber on the riser? We are going to be having a carpet runner, with stair rods. This should protect the riser where people actually walk.

 

[MikeG.]

Just as an aside, this is an open tread stair I built for a listed barn, originally it was to be all closed in, but we decided to move it away from the corner wall, and rather than it looking like a sea of wood made as open tread......

I like your barn stair, but we can't have open treads, and we can't move its location.