They must be having a right laugh

[Jake]

Wow the number of Russian apologists who are woodworkers!

Putinist shills, as they used to be known.

 

[Trainee neophyte]

The record of western involvement in the Middle East has been completely unconvincing .

A few "almost successes" - eg: Kuwait where a successful campaign to eject Iraq was followed by a strategic failure to finish the job.

Don't forget that before Iraq invaded Kuwait, the US ambassador was asked if the USA would have a problem with Iraq taking military action against Kuwait stealing Iraqi oil, and the ambassador said words to the effect of, "Go for it - we won't mind at all".

The war in Iraq 2003-2011 directly lead to the deaths of over 250,000 (mainly Iraqis) and ended only because Obama wanted to claim it was over. It wasn't - but they did have a ceremony.

Not forgetting the half a million dead children due to sanctions - Madeline Albright said it was worth it, so that's OK.

Invasion of Afghanistan in 2001 suppressed, not eliminated, Islamic State. The war ended in 2021, the West withdrew troops, economic and social chaos followed. Deaths estimated at 200,000+.

Perhaps you mean Taliban? ISIS came out of iraqi military prisons.

The US largely stayed out of Syria - I assume concluding that deploying ground troops increased US casualties (not a vote winner). They did send in military jets with and interfered a bit.

This is where the narrative and the truth really started to diverge. The usa (and uk) trained, armed, supported and directed ISIS. They even provided close air support on occasion: (from wikipedia )

On 17 September 2016, a series of 37 U.S.-led Coalition airstrikes near the Deir ez-Zor Airport,[76] lasting from 3:55 to 4:56 p.m. (Damascus time),[77] killed 90 Syrian Army soldiers and wounded 110 more. The attack triggered "a diplomatic firestorm" with Russia calling a (then rare) emergency United Nations Security Council meeting[78] as well as leading to the Syrian government calling off a nationwide ceasefire that had been the result of months of intense diplomatic efforts by the U.S. and Russian governments.[79] The Syrian Army positions that were struck were on the Tharda Mountain and at a nearby artillery base.[80] The airstrikes led to ISIL capturing the Tharda Mountain.[81] Initially, the US Armed Forces did not outright admit that Coalition planes hit Syrian troops,[82] but later the Coalition admitted their planes and drones carried out the attack. The US stated that they halted the strikes as soon as they became aware of the Syrian Army's presence and regretted the unintentional loss of life.[83][84]​

They embraced the "Arab Spring", and dropped bombs on Libya in the naive belief that the Middle East would be transformed by peaceful democracy. History has proved them wrong - no Middle East state has got remotely close to the original aspirations.

Or Gaddafi had plans to create a pan - African gold backed currency and had to be cut off at the knees - everyone took the hint. Hillary Emails Reveal True Motive for Libya Intervention

Russia has done no better in the Middle East - one could easily be drawn to the conclusion that the actions of both the West and the East have been a play for political dominance in the region, with limited regard for the welfare of citizenry.

Russia stopped the western backed " moderate terrorists" in their tracks in Syria, about 9 months, with 40 aircraft. The usa with its huge resources and vast reach failed to stop ISIS for years and in fact materially assisted with their procuring weapons. It is assumed by many that ISIS were and still area plausibly deniable force used to attack whoever wasn't welcome. Two policemen were beheaded in Kazakhstan in the recent troubles there - international head choppers incorporated?

Despite the experiences of the last 25 years, they are at it again over Ukraine - stupidity is often defined as "trying again what has already been proven to fail.

If by "they" you mean the west, and USA/UK in particular, then I agree. The Maidan chaos and regime change in the Ukraine was fully orchestrated by the west, and the Ukraine has been stripped of assets by lots of people, including Joe Biden. The Biden Ukraine Bribe Tapes Don't forget "Fork the EU", Victoria Nuland - Wikipedia

The UK is a bit player on the world stage (the empire went decades ago), should remain firmly on the touchline, and Liz Truss should do likewise instead of inconsequential sound bite politics ahead of a leadership contest.

The UK is roughly equivalent to Portugal, but they just haven't noticed yet. The good news is that Russia has no interest in invading the Ukraine, so they won't. Any military buildup is to stop the Ukraine doing anything suicidal in the Donbass. Probably.

Maybe.

 

[Trainee neophyte]

Putinist shills, as they used to be known.

I've only just put away my Putin eating popcorn avatar - do I need to bring him out again?

 

[Jake]

Go for it. You are almost devoted enough to do this for a living TN like a proper Macedonian.

 

[woodieallen]

Well yes but how would the figures pan out compared to USA action in all those other places?

The point is, Jacob, as I am sure that you are aware, is that Russians are not as SnowWhite as you were trying to imply. Of course, you will deny that that was your intention.

 

[woodieallen]

Rumour has it vlad put up ad advert in the job centre looking for a political advisor..... i think he needs a spin doctor to help rig the next election so nobody notices .....

I believe that he ran for Govt in Derbyshire or close by at the last election.....Jacob someone-or-other

 

[woodieallen]

Lord knows I am not a supporter of the USA, but there is simply no comparison between what even the USA have done and what Stalin did.

A very small, partial list of Koba's works:

1936 - more than 35,000 Poles living alongside the Ukrainian frontier and some 20,000 Finnish peasants deported to Kazakhstan "to secure the Soviet frontiers"
1937 - about 175,000 Koreans living along the Chinese and Korean borders relocated by force to Kazakhstan and Uzbekistan "to secure the Soviet frontiers"
1940 - about 250,000 Poles and thousands of Ukrainians and Byelorussians deported in three major waves to Siberia and to Central and Far Eastern Asia in order to remove the most active populations from the annexed territories. Dispatched to labour camps or executed.
1941 - about 40,000 Estonians, Latvians, Lithuanians - and also ethnic Poles, Finns, and Germans – deported to the Soviet Far East

Note the timeline - much of this was before the invasion by Germany

And that list goes on. In addition there are those who were rounded up and deported, more or less on a whim, to the labour camps across Russia and in particular to the gulags in the Soviet Far East to extract minerals (gold, silver, nickel, tin, zinc, copper, diamonds, etc). It is estimated that as many as 20 million people died in the labour camp system, as the result of forced collectivization, or famine or were simply executions by Beria's goons under Stalin's regime.

Even after the death of probably the greatest mass murderer of all time, the Soviet regime continued to be very harsh, although Kruschev was a great improvement. It is hardly something to regard as aspirational, though.

So I ask you the question, " In the last century has any other nation killed or imprisoned as many people?"

You forgot the compulsory famine in Ukraine where millions died.

 

[woodieallen]

...i.e. no hoper, but just to make sure we had a candidate in every constituency in Derbyshire Dales. ....

Why? What was the point other than, perhaps, an ego trip ?

 

[woodieallen]

What East Germany, Poland, Czechoslovakia, Hungary, Romania, Bulgaria, Albania? I doubt itSimple enough. The above were largely taken over in the process of repelling the Germans.

True but they forgot to leave, as you conveniently forgot, I think !

 

[woodieallen]

.... the arrival of Stalin as dictator etc. Tragically interrupted by WW2, ....

Wow...I hadn't realised that you supported dictators that much. Even ignoring the mass deaths that Stalin caused. And there I was thinking that you were a humanitarian socialist. Showing your true colours, methinks, Comrade.

 

[woodieallen]

I think it's the next sentence that really highlights the expansionist policy of the USSR that was of course interrupted by WWII, delivered by the post WWII settlement, reversed with the end of the Cold War and Putin now seems to be resurrecting ...

"After the start of World War II, the formally neutral Soviets invaded and annexed territories of several Eastern European states, including eastern Poland and the Baltic states."

And don't forget that a huge number of men from the USSR and who had fought against the Nazis, and USSR displaced people taken back to Germany as slave labour , were at the end of the war, forcibly repatriated back to the USSR thanks to Churchill and Eisenhower wanting to brown nose old Joe.

 

[woodieallen]

I said "since Glasnost" (1965) Glasnost - Wikipedia.
Well the USA currently has the highest prison population of any nation - approx 25% of the worlds incarcerated.
In the last HALF century the Russians have been relatively peaceful compared to USA and have released their hold on the communist bloc.

You have got to be joking, Jacob. Are you really that facile that you think there are no hidden gulags left in Russia. That is simply naive.

 

[Jacob]

The point is, Jacob, as I am sure that you are aware, is that Russians are not as SnowWhite as you were trying to imply. Of course, you will deny that that was your intention.

Certainly will deny that yes. Well spotted.
What worries me is that chats like this one always seem to reduce to identifying the baddies and reasons to hate, fear, them.
Or to "other' them as the expression goes.
It shuts down the dialogue and people seem to get quite agitated.
You have actually sent eight very agitated posts - one after the other!
Don't worry - you have nothing to fear from a woodwork forum.

 

[woodieallen]

Certainly will deny that yes. Well spotted.
What worries me is that chats like this one always seem to reduce to identifying the baddies and reasons to hate, fear, them.
Or to "other' them as the expression goes.
It shuts down the dialogue and people seem to get quite agitated. You have actually sent eight very agitated posts - one after the other!

Very well observed. Perhaps it didnt occur to you that some of us have lives to live, rather than stay glued to the computer screen perhaps as much as you do. So, of course there will be several replies in a row. Commonsense. Would have thought you'd have noticed that.

Returning to the topic...I see that, like all your other threads, we're back to wriggling. Fair enough...I've said my piece. As you were.

 

[Jacob]

Very well observed. Perhaps it didnt occur to you that some of us have lives to live, rather than stay glued to the computer screen perhaps as much as you do. So, of course there will be several replies in a row. Commonsense. Would have thought you'd have noticed that.

Returning to the topic...I see that, like all your other threads, we're back to wriggling. Fair enough...I've said my piece. As you were.

9

 

[bansobaby]

You have got to be joking, Jacob. Are you really that facile that you think there are no hidden gulags left in Russia. That is simply naive.

Until I read this one I was quite happily observing the tennis.
Now I really don’t know what to believe
All I would add is that it seems strange that the US have just pulled out of the one place that really does need help just to stick their nose right back in where they are simply not welcome or needed.

 

[woodieallen]

LOL..you crack me up, Jacob, you really do. I've needed a good laugh.

Here you go. I will save you the trouble of posting.

10

Bye for now. Enjoy the thread.

 

[Fergie 307]

And they expect to be invaded from the west - Napoleon, Hitler, and an on-going general threat from USA.
Also they have given up large parts of their "Empire" - much of which was gained incidentally in self defence during WW2.

The first expansion of the USSR in the second world war was into Poland, as a result of an agreement with the Nazis to carve up the country between them. They then proceeded to murder the Polish intelligentsia, Jews and army officers on a scale only bettered by the Nazis themselves. Have you not heard of the Katyn forest massacre for example? If you classify this as self defence then I can only say that we have a very different understanding of that expression. Another part of the agreement was that they provided enormous resources to Germany, most notably oil. The fuel that powered German tanks into the low countries and France, and fuelled the bombers dropping bombs on us through the battle of Britain and the blitz was mostly derived from Soviet oil. The USSR remained by far the largest source of oil for the Nazis right up until Barbarossa, the irony being that the German forces that poured across the border at the outset of that invasion were powered by oil provided by the Soviets themselves.

 

[JobandKnock]

You forgot the compulsory famine in Ukraine where millions died.

No, I'd already mentioned the Holodomor - that last lot was to illustrate it wasn't Stalin's only bit of nastiness. At least Mr Blair got a good book out of it...

 

[Jacob]

The first expansion of the USSR in the second world war was into Poland, as a result of an agreement with the Nazis to carve up the country between them. They then proceeded to murder the Polish intelligentsia, Jews and army officers on a scale only bettered by the Nazis themselves. Have you not heard of the Katyn forest massacre for example? If you classify this as self defence then I can only say that we have a very different understanding of that expression. Another part of the agreement was that they provided enormous resources to Germany, most notably oil. The fuel that powered German tanks into the low countries and France, and fuelled the bombers dropping bombs on us through the battle of Britain and the blitz was mostly derived from Soviet oil. The USSR remained by far the largest source of oil for the Nazis right up until Barbarossa, the irony being that the German forces that poured across the border at the outset of that invasion were powered by oil provided by the Soviets themselves.

Of course I don't classify Katyn as self defence.
The Germans invaded in Poland 16 days before the Russians.
WW2 was not caused by the Soviets and their short lived alliance with the Nazis followed failure of moves to alliance with the west.