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[clogs]

Doug....it takes real skill to make em like that....lol.....
think of the complex joint angles.........

 

[Sgian Dubh]

Air dried to 18% is easily achieved outside in the UK and that will also occur in a roof space in Paris. Just because a timber has a large section, it doesn't mean that it will retain moisture indefinitely in a dry space.

You're not implying that I said timber will retain moisture indefinitely, are you? I didn't, but I have experience of large beams of timber (oak) that have been air drying outside sometimes for a few years where the shell is quite dry but the core is very wet.

You may well be right about air dried timber in the UK achieving 18% MC. In my case it's been rare to come across air dried stuff that's dried outside as low as that. More commonly, my experience is that air dried stuff that is at 16% - 18% MC has either been shifted from drying outside into a dry building with some airflow, or was dried from the start inside such a building. Slainte.

 

[Stevekane]

I have really no experience of working with oak, but the little bit I have done showed me it was much nicer to work with when really green and I would guess that the old french guys with just hand tools would have prefered it like that? Your all most probably aware of this but as its not been mentioned, the roof on even modest cottages was often built on the ground, marked up and reassembled in situ, we sadly had to replace a few badly rotted timbers in our 300 hrs old cottage and they had roman numerals carved into the ends, I can just imagine them wetting joints to keep them from drying out untill they were in place and ready to shrink tight,,,but thats just fanciful guesswork on my part..
Steve.

 

[clogs]

just to add......
I built an extension to my old house in France...I wanted exposed timbers to match the rest of the house......the main beams were cut fresh and supported for 3 years....
after that the pit props were removed, they dropped about an inch....
sorry the photos are poor....but u'll get the idea......
having done quite a bit o work for our french friends I can assure u cutting a 200 year old oak beam 30x30cm is like cutting concrete....
a nightmare up a ladder one handed.....man it eats chains.....hahaha.....
front and back

As for the FRench, we had many french locals that I would call friends......and were still in touch....
our particular area was run by an obnoxious mayor and his cronies....they cut my fences and tried to steal my sheep and I cought em red handed cutting down some oaks in my PRIVATE wood.....plus many more acts of nastyness.....
ps... we did loads of charity work as well.....
We lasted 17 years but we'd have gone in10 if the original sale hadn't fall thru.....diff to find somebody who want 8 hectares....hahaha...
the average Brit lasted on average 5 years and many didn't go that long.....
As we were leaving this mayor was being arrested for corruption and theft....I rest my case......

 

[Adam W.]

You're not implying that I said timber will retain moisture indefinitely, are you? I didn't, but I have experience of large beams of timber (oak) that have been air drying outside sometimes for a few years where the shell is quite dry but the core is very wet.

You may well be right about air dried timber in the UK achieving 18% MC. In my case it's been rare to come across air dried stuff that's dried outside as low as that. More commonly, my experience is that air dried stuff that is at 16% - 18% MC has either been shifted from drying outside into a dry building with some airflow, or was dried from the start inside such a building. Slainte.

I'm not implying anything Richard, it's what you said upthread.

"All the same, any oak larger than about 100 mm square in section is going to take years to air dry to something like, at best, 20% MC here in the UK: lower moisture content may be achievable in drier parts of Europe. In reality, a large piece of oak, 150mm+ in section is most unlikely to ever air dry through to the centre to 20 - 25% MC."

 

[Daniel2]

just to add......
I built an extension to my old house in France...I wanted exposed timbers to match the rest of the house......the main beams were cut fresh and supported for 3 years....
after that the pit props were removed, they dropped about an inch....
sorry the photos are poor....but u'll get the idea......
having done quite a bit o work for our french friends I can assure u cutting a 200 year old oak beam 30x30cm is like cutting concrete....
a nightmare up a ladder one handed.....man it eats chains.....hahaha.....
front and back
View attachment 146648
View attachment 146649

View attachment 146645

View attachment 146646
As for the FRench, we had many french locals that I would call friends......and were still in touch....
our particular area was run by an obnoxious mayor and his cronies....they cut my fences and tried to steal my sheep and I cought em red handed cutting down some oaks in my PRIVATE wood.....plus many more acts of nastyness.....
ps... we did loads of charity work as well.....
We lasted 17 years but we'd have gone in10 if the original sale hadn't fall thru.....diff to find somebody who want 8 hectares....hahaha...
the average Brit lasted on average 5 years and many didn't go that long.....
As we were leaving this mayor was being arrested for corruption and theft....I rest my case......

So, basically, you're lambasting an entire country (all 67.5 million of them), because of the behavior of one person ?
And, of course, this would never happen anywhere else, would it ?

 

[Sgian Dubh]

I'm not implying anything Richard, it's what you said upthread.

"All the same, any oak larger than about 100 mm square in section is going to take years to air dry to something like, at best, 20% MC here in the UK: lower moisture content may be achievable in drier parts of Europe. In reality, a large piece of oak, 150mm+ in section is most unlikely to ever air dry through to the centre to 20 - 25% MC."

You're correct Adam. I misspoke in error and you spotted it Thanks. I'll make a correction here and leave the original as it is on the basis that anyone that's read this far will see the correction.

All the same, any oak larger than about 100 mm square in section is going to take years to air dry to something like, at best, 20% MC here in the UK: lower moisture content may be achievable in drier parts of Europe. In reality, a large piece of oak, 150mm+ in section exposed to external UK conditions to dry, even for an extended period, perhaps years, is likely to struggle to reach 20% MC at its centre.

I think that just about covers it, and it matches my intermittent experience of working with large chunks of oak, mostly in the form of sculptural items and agricultural fencing and gates, plus conversions of agricultural buildings into residential usage. Slainte.

 

[T-H]

Interesting but short article on here using ancient methods of "chipping" away: ‘They said it was impossible’: how medieval carpenters are rebuilding Notre Dame

 

[Barkisland]

Next time you are in France take a trip to Guedelon Castle where they have recently completed building a medieval hall with a green oak roof. It takes one of their carpenters a day to trim up a freshly felled green oak tree (fast grown, tall and straight) into a beam using an axe. I understand that the work carried out on the hall at Guedelon has been used as a proof of concept for the proposed works at Notre Dame. The castle is well worth a visit.