The Modern Benchplanes

[Benchwayze]

I have just seen a write-up on Veritas-Clifton-Lie-Nielsens.

I am now more confused than ever. Not because of the review; just the bewildering choice!

I shall be in a position to buy some quality bench and block planes in a few month's time. (Should fate spare me). I know I need a heavy, jointer/bench plane, a smoother and a decent block plane.

Would I be okay with that 'range', or have I to think about low-angle bench planes too? There are many different models I know and while I am not too worried about finance, I don't want to just throw it around. Besides, I already have some decent oldies from Stanley and Record.

Any advice greatly appreciated.

 

[woodbloke]

John - this has been discussed a few times on the forum recently. I tend to favour conventional frogged planes and for that reason like the LN range of Bedrock planes. If I were in your positition then I would probably opt for a LN No5, a No4 smoother a 9 -1/2 adjustable mouth block (which I have already) and if I wanted to push the boat out as well, a No8 Try. I also like the Mitre shooting plane for use on the shooting board and am tempted when funds permit.
Others will be along shortly with views on low angle, BU planes of which I have no experience. Paul Chapman is a big fan of Clifton planes and has several, inc a No7 - Rob

 

[Paul Chapman]

If I were starting again, and knowing what I know now, my choice would be (as a basic kit with which you could do most things) #7 and #4.5 (Clifton or LN with Bedrock frogs) and a low angle block plane with adjustable mouth (Veritas or LN). Then I would add other planes, as finances allowed, to suit my particular circumstances - scrub plane (because I don't have machinery - but keep in mind, you can modify many other planes to act as scrub planes, as I have done); scraper plane for difficult grain (don't have one yet but plan to get one); shoulder plane; followed by the self-indulgent planes like the Stanley #45 and Record #405 (of which I have both and which are great fun ) and more bench planes, like a #3 and #6 (which is great on a shooting board, as is the #7).

Apart from the block plane, I have no experience of low-angle bench planes and have never seen the need to get on that particular slope (but having said that, a lot of people rave about them).

Cheers :wink:

Paul

 

[Benchwayze]

Thanks again Rob and Paul....

I am taken by LN to be honest. They have a good range. I like the facility to adjust the mouth, without losing support under the iron, as happens with the older metal-bodies. I am trying to get my head around how this works. Surely if one moves the frog forward, then it must rob the iron of support?

I also like the idea of the Veritas low angle smoother, but I would like to go to a show and handle one. When I grip a bench-plane, I wrap my forefinger around the cap iron, but the low-angle plane lacks the necessary metalwork in front of the tote!

I am having fun surfing the suppliers' sites mind!
Thanks again
John

 

[Paul Chapman]

I am trying to get my head around how this works. Surely if one moves the frog forward, then it must rob the iron of support?

As you adjust the frog, the blade assembly moves with it, so the support stays the same. If you are at any of the shows and Mike Hudson from Clifton is there (as he often is) have a word with him. He's very helpful and will show you how it all works. The Clifton and LN Bedrock frogs work in exactly the same way.

Cheers :wink:

Paul

 

[Benchwayze]

Paul and Rob


Thanks yet again.

You mentioned shooting end grain.

I rarely use a shooting board (Except a donkey's ear', and that I would have to find. I think it's on top of a cupboard somewhere.)

I have a guillotine for small stuff, and my Coronet-Major makes a great job of squaring stock that isn't so wide, it would have to be planed on end in the vice. Working on sawn end grain might horrify some, but the blade on my saw leaves an adequate surface. As long as it is truly squared, which my saw is, well the joints are cleaned up after gluing in any case.

I'm not idle, but at my time of life, I have to resort to some machinery. I just feel it's time I dusted down my hand jointing skills and took things a little slower. So I want some nicer tools. Simple as that. But panel saws and scrub-planes wouldn't help the arthritis. (Might help me lose a bit of belly-draught though!)

Thanks for the info again Rob.

John

 

[Benchwayze]

Okay Paul. Got that.
Thanks again.
John ccasion5:

 

[sparky]

well...in my opinion if you are thinking about support of the blade and adjustments of the mouth (as opposed to a plane that is set up for a specific task and left that way) then i can't imagine a better plane than a veritas low angle bench plane. anyone of veritas' low angle planes (four i think) has a little brass knob that allows for the finest adjustments of the mouth without any movement of the blade. the blade has constant contact with the bed and its bed (unlike other planes) does not move. all-in-all it is very very solid. i find my LV low angle Jack to be so user friendly, solid and well designed that i just can't imagine ever being tempted to get another style of plane. but i am going to add the LV LA jointer and smoother at some point. but for now with two blades of different bevel angles i can dimension wood, joint it, and smooth it with the same plane with only seconds of time spend when i adjust the blades or mouth settings to go from one task to another.
i hope i was not too long winded there. but i have heard others say that once you try a low angle plane there is a good chance that you will never go back to the other design (stanley or bedrock type)

hope that helps more that it complicates things

sparky

ps. i know LN makes bevel up bench planes as well but i have never tried these so i can't say how well they work

 

[JesseM]

I have a mix of bevel up and bevel down planes. I recently bought the LV BU smoother with the 50 degree blade to attack a piece of bubinga and its the only plane that works it without tearout. But all of my BD planes work great when used in standard hardwoods (like oak, cherry, maple, etc). In summary I like both styles, and use them for different things. I do use the BD the most though.

 

[MrJay]

The trick with the bedrock frog is that you can loosen and adjust it all from the back rather than having to remove the blade to get to the workings from above like with the Bailey frog. You still need to adjust everything after moving the frog, but it is still a lot less faff. You don't lose any support when you slide it back and forwards because once it's tightened up it's all clamped to the bed of the plane from underneath (it's on a slope, so you get bags of surface area). The Cutting Iron, chip breaker and lever cap remain clamped to the frog the whole time.

I bought me a Clifton #4 a few weeks ago from Classic Hand Tools; it's very very purdy (after a false start with one with that arrived with a squiffy handle, but they sorted that in no time \o/). My way of thinking is that the smoother is pretty much mission critical so it's worth the extra cash for a nice one. For the #7 I'm happy with my old Stanley; it's not in the same league as Clifton/Lie-Nielsen et all, but it's quite good enough for jointing. Some time soon I want to make a woody Jack plane with big wide sides for shuteing.

No hesitation in recommending the Veritas low angle block plane either: Awesome little tool.

 

[MikeW]

I am trying to get my head around how this works. Surely if one moves the frog forward, then it must rob the iron of support?

As you adjust the frog, the blade assembly moves with it, so the support stays the same...

It is true the Bedrock design moves the blade with the frog, but it moves it on an incline. What this means is that if one adjusts the frog forward on either a Stanley BR, LN or Clifton, the blade progressively deepens its cut. Still a very solid means of adjustment.

The LV bench planes, on the other hand, took the Bedrock concept and improved on it. With the LV bench planes, the entire frog moves in a lateral plane so the depth of cut does not change. Better method, but whether it means anything to the user is another question.

One thing to think about re Stanley/Clifton vs. LV/LN is the type of iron they are made from. The type of cast on the former is brittle, the latter is made from ductile iron [nearly unbreakable but is a skosh flexible].

If I was purchasing based upon the frog system, it would be the LV, of which I have owned two with that system. If it was based on...something else, I would pick the LN.

Take care, Mike

 

[Benchwayze]

Thanks for all the input guys.

What I was getting at was that as the frog on a Bailey moves forward, along the flat bed, it eventually overhangs the rear edge of the mouth, so frog and iron are 'suspended'.

I think that is still the case with the LN, but because of the slope under the frog, it isn't so much of a problem.

I shall no doubt go for a mix of bevel up and down, as I do now with my Stanley and Record Bench and Block planes.

Thanks again folks

John

 

[MrJay]

Yep, with the Bedrock style you at least get far more clamping area than with the Bailey. In practice the amount of overhang with either is pretty insignificant.

 

[dchenard]

First, let me say that all three brands produce excellent planes, and you will most likely be happy with either.

This said, there is something to be said in favor of the low angle (bevel up) planes. First, there's no frog to speak of (at least not an adjustable one), so nothing to come loose or induce chatter if improperly machined. Second, if you hit gnarly grain you can increase the angle of attack by simply grinding a steeper bevel. You can grind a back bevel on a bevel down plane , but when it comes to sharpening the blade it's easier to have to work on only one side of the iron. If you need a lower angle, for shooting or working end grain, with a bevel up plane it's a simple matter to switch the iron for a lower angle one; with a bevel down plane you're out of luck, can't go lower than 45 degree pitch. In a nutshell, with a bevel up plane you gain versatility without sacrifice in performance.

Then there's the issue of the adjuster. Some people (lots of them actually) like the Stanley type mechanism, as it allows one to adjust depth of cut without taking the hands off the tote and knob. True, but over time the design of that type of adjuster wears and causes slop in the action, which defeats the advantage of having the adjuster at your fingertips IMHO. LN planes that I've laid my hands on seemed to be fairly tight in that respect, but all of them had seen little use. I have had the opportunity to try a Clifton smoother that had a few miles on it, and while the performance was there the adjuster was quite sloppy, like a couple turns of lash. Compare that to the Norris-type adjuster from the Veritas planes, none of my planes from that company have more than a quarter-turn of slop. I find it very unnerving to have to turn an adjuster back 2-3 turns to retract the iron a bit then 2-3 more turns forward to set the depth of cut...

When it comes to available funds, if the situation in the UK is similar to here in Canada, Veritas planes are noticeably less expensive than LN or Clifton (I suspect that Clifton is more affordable in your neck of the woods, over here they cost the same or more than a LN equivalent).

Given the choice, as Paul mentioned a smoother, a jointer and a block plane are the first three planes to get. I would suggest the Veritas bevel up jointer, excellent plane. I tried the LN #8 and loved it, but the price is just unreal, so I bought a vintage Stanley and replaced the iron and cap with LN replacements. I'm happy, for a third of the price of the LN...

And I would go for the Veritas low angle jack for a smoother. I like the extra registration of that plane compared to a smoother, and its performance and balance is wonderful. Think 5 1/2 instead of 4 1/2... Oh, it's also great for shooting...

For a scrub, I have the Veritas and like it very much. If you want to save some money you could buy a cheap import and grind a heavy camber on the iron. Not as good but not as expensive either, and it will do the job.

Block planes... The LN 60 1/2 is revered as "the standard" in its class. I have one, don't care for it, I might even sell it and get the Veritas (the tote and knob attachment turn it into a small smoother, I tried it and it works very well). I love the apron plane, but the mouth is not adjustable.

And you will want some kind of joinery plane at some point. I'd recommend a large shoulder plane, they're all good (Veritas, LN and Clifton), but the Veritas is more user-friendly according to reports.

By now I probably sound like a walking advertisement for Veritas planes... I don't own stock in the company (wish I did, though :lol: ), but I like the fact that the company does more than just spit out quality reproductions of old planes, and actually does something to improve on what has been done in the past. Innovation, you know...

HTH,

DC

 

[woodbloke]

Benchwayze wrote:

When I grip a bench-plane, I wrap my forefinger around the cap iron, but the low-angle plane lacks the necessary metalwork in front of the tote!

John - me too. I tried Philly's BU low angle smoother just before Christmas and it worked quite well, except that it felt very strange to use as I couldn't 'guide' it with my forefinger. My guess is that being able extend your forefinger and cuddle a bit of metalwork gives a bit of directional stability. It's certainly natural for me to stick out the forefinger and felt distinctly odd not to be able to do so.
It's interesting that MrC has bought a LV BU jack (as mentioned in a recent edition of F&C) as he's read allot about them on t'inernet (here I suspect). What's even more interesting is that he doesn't rave about it...my gut feeling reading between the lines is that it's a useful plane to have but it won't replace his conventional frogged planes. I understand now that all he does now to plane the curly-wurly exotics is to put a small 'back bevel' of about 20-30deg on the iron which still enables the original frog to be kept. I 'spose at the end of the jour you have to try out these different options and find which one you're most comfortable with......If you're going to NikW's Bigger Bash at Cambridge on 01 Sept I 'spect there will be one or twelve planes to try, 'specially as Philly'll be there :lol: - Rob

 

[Paul Chapman]

you have to try out these different options and find which one you're most comfortable with......

I think this is often just as important as the specification of the plane. Luckily there are plenty of very good quality planes available today and it should be possible for everyone to find one (or several :wink: ) that suits them.

Cheers :wink:

Paul

 

[woodbloke]

Paul Chapman wrote:

to find one (or several ) that suits them.

Paul - you must be referring to Philly then :lol: - Rob

 

[Philly]

Hey! My ears are tingling, can't be good :lol:
Some good advice here. Only thing to add - the Bevel Up planes. Yes, at first they feel a little different. But their performance is top notch - they perform way above their price! You soon get used to there being no frog to bang your fingers on and it becomes very natural. Especially when you can take effortless, superfine shavings with zero tear-out.
If you can get your hands on some planes to try-before-you-buy that can make be a great help. Are there any forum members near you?
Cheers
Philly

 

[Benchwayze]

Thanks again folks,

I get the feeling that using a bevel up plane of that size would be akin to using one of those old 'Paramo' disposable blade planes. Clumsy to use and a little light in the hand. I could be wrong of course and it seems you Philly have the last word on them.

If possible, I will try before I buy, as there must be a wood-show somewhere, before I have saved up enough cash!
but unfortunately, I don't know who else would want to live near Walsall, but I suppose there must be someone!
Thanks Philly


John

 

[Paul Kierstead]

I get the feeling that using a bevel up plane of that size would be akin to using one of those old 'Paramo' disposable blade planes. Clumsy to use and a little light in the hand.

Nono, not at all, not even a little. The LV (and LN) bevel up planes are very lovely, beautifully made pieces of machinery, with more then sufficient heft, engineering and finish.

It is more of are you a BMW or a Mercedes man. Me, I tend (though not universally) to prefer the bevel down design, and my 'in the hand' choice definitely runs toward LN, but there is is no question that planes from both manufacturers are exceedingly well made and engineered.