President Elect's 'top team'

[Chris152]

You can make yourself whatever you want.

You can also go over and fight, if you feel that strongly about things and stop using other people as cannon fodder for your ‘beliefs’,

I suspect most Ukrainians would rather be alive, than being beaten, press ganged and frog marched off to die in a ditch, so you can feel good about yourself.

Oh yes, you forgot about that didn’t you. A lot of the people fighting your little war don’t want to and they’re going to die. They can’t escape, Ukraine closed the borders.you’ve turned them into slaves of death.

Bravo

That's what tends to happen when a country finds itself at war, it's called conscription, they don't tend to let you wander off and live somewhere else instead.

Do you pay taxes in the UK? If so, it's your war as well. What have you been doing to stop it, apart from posting in the aob section of a woodworking forum?

 

[ey_tony]

How very woke of you, Tony - negotiate rather than fight. Next you'll be joining a commune and hugging trees.

Of course Chris you and I could engage in a battle of wits over this but sadly judging by your comment, my woke pragmatic reasoning precludes me from engaging with an unarmed combatant!
I happen to think that Trump's re-emergence on the political scene is just what Putin was hoping for...Trump isn't remotely militarily belligerent and Putin got it wrong with the Ukraine invasion so both Putin and Ukraine will both be looking for a face-saving way out and Trump is the key to a negotiated settlement.

Allowing Ukraine unfettered access to the kind of NATO military weapons that could induce major retaliation at this moment in time is utterly half brained and that about sums up Biden...he's not compos mentis so it's the advisers and warmongers who are behind this. The warmongers have been courting the Democrats for their own ends for decades to secure big money therefore we are going to have rival opinions on these matters.

I'm quite sure when a final settlement is reached, neither side will have got what they wanted but further conflict can be averted.

 

[Spectric]

This isn't a game of poker or blink, it's the future of mankind which be affected if things go wrong. If Putin is as bad as many people claim he is, then I'd doubt he'd think twice if his country was attacked with weapons provided by the West.

Or like some computer game where after messing up and getting yourself exterminated you just hit the reset button and start again, get this wrong and no one is going to have any trouble keeping warm !

negotiate rather than fight. Next you'll be joining a commune and hugging trees.

All good miltary strategist would work to survive to fight another day if faced with overwhelming opposition, dead men cannot fight !

 

[ey_tony]

That's what tends to happen when a country finds itself at war, it's called conscription, they don't tend to let you wander off and live somewhere else instead.

So are all those migrants and boat people claiming asylum from war torn regions effectively deserters?

 

[Fergie 307]

Are you actually in favour of the USA providing the full on capabilities of long range ballistic missiles provided to Ukraine to use to provoke a reaction from Putin/Russia enough to see if he/they are bluffing or not?
This isn't a game of poker or blink, it's the future of mankind which be affected if things go wrong. If Putin is as bad as many people claim he is, then I'd doubt he'd think twice if his country was attacked with weapons provided by the West.

Better to negotiate a settlement of hostilities rather than force one through military might as it will always be seen as an unresolved issue and no doubt erupt again further down the line.

No. I'm suggesting that by giving Ukraine the means to reply in kind it might bring Putin to his senses.
At present Russia are raining missiles and drones onto Ukraine with relative impunity. Giving the Ukrainians the ability to launch their own strikes into Russia, at the military supply infrastructure and sites where the missiles and drones are being fired and controlled from, is likely to put them in even more difficulties.
Best case scenario is that the military get sufficiently fed up with the situation that Putin ends up falling out of a window, or suffering some other unfortunate "accident".

 

[Fergie 307]

Or like some computer game where after messing up and getting yourself exterminated you just hit the reset button and start again, get this wrong and no one is going to have any trouble keeping warm !


All good miltary strategist would work to survive to fight another day if faced with overwhelming opposition, dead men cannot fight !

Or like some computer game where after messing up and getting yourself exterminated you just hit the reset button and start again, get this wrong and no one is going to have any trouble keeping warm !


All good miltary strategist would work to survive to fight another day if faced with overwhelming opposition, dead men cannot fight !

But you aren't talking about living to fight another day are you.
You are saying the threat of nuclear weapons from Putin is enough to just give him what he wants.
Presumably the same argument would apply if he next turns his attention to Poland or wherever?

 

[Chris152]

But you aren't talking about living to fight another day are you.
You are saying the threat of nuclear weapons from Putin is enough to just give him what he wants.
Presumably the same argument would apply if he next turns his attention to Poland or wherever?

And could have applied to the UK in 1939.

 

[Spectric]

You are saying the threat of nuclear weapons from Putin is enough to just give him what he wants.

So are you saying that we need to go to war in order to stop him ? If we do not negiotate then that will be the final outcome, faced with China, Russia, Iran and North Korea what do you think are our chances ?

 

[sploo]

You can make yourself whatever you want.

You can also go over and fight, if you feel that strongly about things and stop using other people as cannon fodder for your ‘beliefs’,

I suspect most Ukrainians would rather be alive, than being beaten, press ganged and frog marched off to die in a ditch, so you can feel good about yourself.

Oh yes, you forgot about that didn’t you. A lot of the people fighting your little war don’t want to and they’re going to die. They can’t escape, Ukraine closed the borders.you’ve turned them into slaves of death.

Bravo

I rather suspect "most Ukrainians" would find your post rather distasteful.

It's nothing to do with "beliefs"; it's about trying to stop a violent invader. It's hardly like Putin is planning on exporting paradise to the Ukraine (given the state of Russia these days) so I can absolutely understand Ukrainians wanting to fight for their nation. I've no doubt they'd prefer peace, but peace on your knees isn't very inviting.

 

[Chris152]

So are all those migrants and boat people claiming asylum from war torn regions effectively deserters?

I think the word you used a little while back was 'cowards'. Because they didn't stand and fight for their place in their countries.

 

[sploo]

But you aren't talking about living to fight another day are you.
You are saying the threat of nuclear weapons from Putin is enough to just give him what he wants.
Presumably the same argument would apply if he next turns his attention to Poland or wherever?

It does bemuse me slightly that some of our most passionate patriotic members (who are dead set on defending our fair isle against the evil marches of foreign invaders - be that immigrants or the EU in general) seem to be very relaxed about Ukraine effectively surrendering to Russia.

The same, it would appear, is true of Trump's people (who, incidentally, also like to wrap themselves in the flag).

 

[Jake]

When did the right get so spineless?

 

[Jake]

So are you saying that we need to go to war in order to stop him ? If we do not negiotate then that will be the final outcome, faced with China, Russia, Iran and North Korea what do you think are our chances ?

How are you going to stop him? At the moment, the Ukrainians are fighting for the whole of the West (while we tie their hands behind their backs).

He wants to reassemble the territory of the USSR, and why stop there.

 

[Chris152]

When did the right get so spineless?

Well, obviously the most important thing is to rile against the 'lefty' Democrats; however, in this case, that's necessitated the call for appeasement. The latter is of little importance compared to the former.

All kinds of contradictions in relation to what they've been writing before, but coherence was never going to be their strong point.

 

[Spectric]

If Russia really wanted to move into NATO territory then he would not have got bogged down in a conventional conflict in Ukraine, it would have gone nuclear from the start as he would have known NATO would respond. When you think about this it does get odd, he does not want NATO on his borders so invades Ukraine, now assume he takes Ukraine then who is now on his borders ? Maybe the end game is to turn Ukraine into no mans land but again what difference does it make.

 

[ey_tony]

The left wingers call right wingers for their supposed insanity but at the same time looking at some of the comments above these sensible left wingers want a showdown possibly involving Russia and nuclear weapons and then they wonder why they call these people absolute nutcases and halfwits.

 

[TRITON]

I think the word you used a little while back was 'cowards'. Because they didn't stand and fight for their place in their countries.

Most of them are coming from countries that have been ravaged by our proxy wars, rather than internal strife.

 

[Jake]

If Russia really wanted to move into NATO territory then he would not have got bogged down in a conventional conflict in Ukraine,

He is testing NATO and if he is allowed to continue, his next move will be to see if he can pull apart A5 cohesion with one of the Baltics.

it would have gone nuclear from the start as he would have known NATO would respond.

Mutually assured destruction still applies (at least until Trump gets in).

 

[Jake]

The left wingers call right wingers for their supposed insanity but at the same time looking at some of the comments above these sensible left wingers want a showdown possibly involving Russia and nuclear weapons and then they wonder why they call these people absolute nutcases and halfwits.

What is really half-witted is doing a Neville Chamberlain all over again.

 

[Terry - Somerset]

The consensus on this forum seems to be that Biden's decision to allow Ukraine to use longer range weapons is a deliberate attempt to disrupt whatever strategy Trump wants to put in place once he has power. I don't agree.

There is another equally plausible explanation - he is doing it to support Trumps initiatives.

To bring conflict to a swift end requires:

• Putin to believe that he has won - winning permanent border changes enlarging Russian territory. It is a victory justifying the losses and sacrifices sustained by the Russian people.
• Zelensky needs to bring the conflict to a close with dignity. There is zero chance of Ukraine defeating of Russia. Conflict is only sustained through Western supplies of military hardware, without which rapid defeat by a numerically superior enemy would quickly follow.

The Trump strategy - force agreement to a ceasefire and revised borders:

• Putin carrot - gets enlarged territory - borders - Crimea is already a de facto done deal + Eastern Ukraine largely held by Russia now
• Putin stick - all limits removed from US sourced weapons + increased supply of munitions
• Zelensky carrot - probable membership (there will be some hurdles) of NATO and/or EU - future security for the core of Ukraine
• Zelensky stick - no more munitions - defeat looms large

Bidens initial act is just a warning to Putin - I suspect they have much more potent weapons in their arsenal and the capacity to reach Moscow if wanted.

If the Trump initiative is success he can claim to have laid the groundwork, if Trump fails he can at least claim they tried. He may even have agreed their use with Trump, or at the very least denied Trump the egotistical kudos of claiming "I did it, Biden was a hopeless POTUS"