The Long Road Back

[Benchwayze]

Well, I finally went and did it.
I flogged my 'Woodrat'.

I am on the long road back to being a 'Galoot'. I think that's the term in some places.

I have to 'blame' Good Woodworking's letters column.
I was musing about Martin Godfrey's letter reference the dovetail. (A contributor had written an article on the possibility that the joint was redundant; another celebrated furniture maker claimed it was a joint that amateurs often use to pose or show-off. (Not his exact words).

Someone else thought that Martin Godfrey had suggested it was THE only joint to fix two pieces of timber at right-angles. (I think that was a misinterpretation of Martin's letter btw!) :wink:

Me? I think it's the best joint for quality solid-carcasses and drawer work. Then I reasoned if the joint is so important, better reserve it for that quality work and make the joint with hand-tools too? So I got rid of the Woodrat, and the Leigh, and just kept a Trend ‘cookie-cutter’ jig, for run of the mill drawers. There is a little more space in my shop now!

All I need now is some advice on the pros and cons of Japanese v traditional Western chisels. Also, is there a genuine, quality dovetail saw on the market today, or should I have my old Spear and Jackson doctored?

Cheers folks ccasion5:

John

 

[MrJay]

Group hug!!!

 

[woodbloke]

John - big ccasion5: for getting rid of Rat thing and the other jig....they aren't necessary and the accumulated dosh can be much better spent on good hand tools to cut joints.
As regards a decent saw, I suppose that the LN offerings are probably as good as you're going to get straight out the box, though I have seen the odd half respectable saw from MikeW and others :roll: at Philly's place.
I had a set of Jap chisels from Axminster which weren't bad but I couldn't get on with the handles with the lump of steel at the end, awful for doing any hand work as they raised a great weal in the palm of my hand. That said, they could take a fantastic edge. I now use the A2 chisels from LN which I'm far happier with, much more user friendly and capable of holding a decent edge for a long time, I hone mine at 33deg, slightly higher than normal tho' they are supplied with a ground bevel of 30deg - Rob

 

[Paul Chapman]

Some say these are the best http://www.wenzloffandsons.com/saws/index.html

And I'm not going to argue :wink:

Cheers :wink:

Paul

 

[Alf]

If you can only see a Woodrat as a means to cut dovetails, I believe you are indeed better off without it.

Saw - Wenzloff. Although get the S&J sorted too. You can never have too many saws. Or was that clamps? One of those anyway - why take the risk of picking the wrong one?

Chisels - the Japanese still apparently remember how they used to make chisels and why, and still do so, which is in their favour. On the other hand they're a bit different from Western ones and you may find you don't get along with them - I didn't.

Cheers, Alf

 

[MrJay]

All of which said, your old saw may well be half decent with a bit of TLC, my fave is an unassuming steel backed thing by Buck & Hickman.

Can't tell you much about chisels, but I can tell you for something so rudimentary and ubiquitous it's goshed tricky to find good ones second hand for non-extortionate sums of cash.

 

[Woody Alan]

I have no doubt that Wenzloff saws are good, if you can get your hands on one at the moment. What I can say (from owning one) is that Adrias are spot on. I had both the Adria and Lie Nielsen in my hand and the decision to purchase the Adria was purely visual in that the teeth were immaculate with no distortion under the tooth on the blade, wheras the Lie nilesen blade appeared distorted... the distortion was consistent per tooth along the blade, more of a starting to take some of the stress of setting the tooth.
I suspect the observation is meaningless but the point is I had to make a decision on something so it shows how hair splitting the difference is. I understand some say the Lie Nielsen is a little softer to start the cut. Philly is your man I think he has all three
To put my observation in perspective I still intend to buy the small Lie Nilesen xcut that Adria don't do.

Alan

 

[Benchwayze]

Thanks Folks,

Alf, I understand your concern! Yes, I do realise the Woodrat, jig can do much more than just cut dovetails! I didn't think I had inferred otherwise! If I did, it was unintentional.

Fact is Alf, I had visions of using it for all sorts of jobs and joints, and the main reason I bought it was to have a 'dedicated-station' for all routing, without too much bending.

However, I never did get to use it and I have other means of cutting most joints, both with hand-tools and machines, so I made a little space. That's the point though. Without the router, the Woodrat won't do anything but decorate a wall I suppose! That's where the space is now!

You say you couldn't get on with Japanese chisels. I might find difficulty with the steel hoops on the handles. Definitely, I couldn't get on with the Japanese saws. I just can't get used to pull-cutting.

At the end of the day, our British forebears did some wonderful work using Western tools. So, I sometimes wonder if all the furore around Japanese tools, is down to James Krenov and the obvious fact that Eastern steel is worked much more carefully than is ours.. (I suppose someone will now tell me there are craftspeople here who are just as good.) And within reason, it's usually the worker who's to blame for mistakes not tools. So me old Dad used to say.

Thanks for the website reference on the saws too. I think I will at least give the chisels a go now I have some cash to get some decent ones. If I can't get on with them, there is always ebay!

Thanks again for all the advice folks. (Even the group hug!!!)
Catch you later ccasion5:
John

 

[Philly]

John
Get hold of this months Good Woodworking - there is a review of four top dovetail saws by Andy King and some other longhaired bloke :wink:
I've used the L-N, Adria, Pax and Wenzloff (and other cheapy ones too!) Out of the first four there is not too much between them - they all cut way better than the cheap ones. There are minor differences between them, the way they start the cut, speed of cut, etc but they are all great saws. It is down to how you like the handle, etc....
The advantage of a Wenzloff saw is he will make it exactly how you like it - and if you are unsure he will spend time with you helping you decide on the spec of saw that will suit you perfectly. At todays exchange rate Mike's saws look pretty darn cheap, too!
Hope this helps
Philly

 

[pam niedermayer]

I don't know how a quality rip dozuki could be beaten in dovetail land (and I've used western backsaws like Tyzack to good effect). Also perfect is the LN straight handled dovetail saw. These saws are accurate, quick, and incredibly easy to use.

As to chisels, I'll venture that most any laminated chisel will do a superior job. I mostly use Japanese these days, but also have plenty of old western Swans, etc. They all take and keep a great edge.

I was vacillating 6 or 7 years ago between western and Japanese (was in the process of moving from power tools) when I watched Kingshott's videos. At the end of one of them he whipped out his new Japanese tools. Blew me away, convinced me completely; so today, while I have a fair number of western metal specialty planes, most everything else I use a lot is Japanese.

Pam

 

[bugbear]

Also, is there a genuine, quality dovetail saw on the market today, or should I have my old Spear and Jackson doctored?

At least 3 - LN, Adria and Wenzloff.

But almost any half-decent vintage saw of the right size can be sharpened to cut DTs pretty darn well.

The trick is finding someone who you can trust to sharpen.

BugBear

 

[Benchwayze]

Thanks Pam,

I have one Swan chisel only, and others of indeterminate make, that I had to make handles for. What I normally look for at auctions etc, are tools that obviously have a 'double-layer’ construction. The old plane irons, exhibit this readily, and as long as the blade has life left in it, I often buy old coffin smoothers, even if the bodies need throwing out.

I still can't master the pull-cut though, on Japanese saws. The first thing I noticed was that sawdust was pulled out of the cut, obscuring the cutting line, and I was blowing away waste all the time!

These days, I commonly use a 'Gent's' saw (which is what I think you mean by the straight handled Lie-Nielsen) and I bought a reasonable one and fettled it myself. Still prefer the open handled brass-back saws though, so maybe I might get lucky at an antique-fair!

Thanks for your words Phil and I will get a copy of said GW, and see what has been said. I guess it will be easy to know Philly from Andy. Follicle-wise I am somewhere in between both of you.

Thanks too, to Bugbear. I tend to agree. I did know a good saw-doctor, but he went and retired years ago now, so I shall keep looking!
Thanks again folks.

ccasion5:

John

 

[Alf]

These days, I commonly use a 'Gent's' saw (which is what I think you mean by the straight handled Lie-Nielsen) and I bought a reasonable one and fettled it myself. Still prefer the open handled brass-back saws though, so maybe I might get lucky at an antique-fair!

Nothing to stop you putting a pistol grip handle on the Gents saw - won't give it a brass back though, it's true.

Cheers, Alf

 

[ByronBlack]

Why is there a lack of saw doctors. It seems to me there that is a large need for one/many and with the lack of affordably good saws around, the second hand market must be massive but for the fact that not many can sharpen these old gems. (Apart from the two excellent ones I bought from ALF that is ;-)

Maybe I should get re-training

 

[Anonymous]

All I need now is some advice on the pros and cons of Japanese v traditional Western chisels. Also, is there a genuine, quality dovetail saw on the market today, or should I have my old Spear and Jackson doctored?

Cheers folks ccasion5:

John

I cut a lot of DTs buy hand - most in fact. Some can be seen here

I have found japanese chisels, although very good, are not as good as decent western chisels for DTs due to their (typically) high shoulders.

As for your question about quality DT chisels on the market. Lie Nielsen. I bought mine specifically for DTS as they are superb quality tools with very thin shoulders. My old AIs are very good chisels, but for DT work, the LNs are superb

 

[woodbloke]

Why is there a lack of saw doctors. It seems to me there that is a large need for one/many and with the lack of affordably good saws around, the second hand market must be massive but for the fact that not many can sharpen these old gems. (Apart from the two excellent ones I bought from ALF that is ;-)

Maybe I should get re-training

BB - Newt came round to my place the other day and we put a digital vernier on my LN dovetail saw. The displacement of each tooth was about 0.0015" (one and a half thou). Part of the problem is obtaining a saw set that will only push out the tooth from the root this amount. Certainly my Eclipse set will go nowhere near this. I know that when you take a saw into a shop for sharpening all they do is send it off somewhere where some spotty oik will just stick it on a machine regardless of what is required to sharpen and set it :x - Rob

 

[Paul Chapman]

Newt came round to my place the other day and we put a digital vernier on my LN dovetail saw. The displacement of each tooth was about 0.0015" (one and a half thou). Part of the problem is obtaining a saw set that will only push out the tooth from the root this amount. Certainly my Eclipse set will go nowhere near this. I know that when you take a saw into a shop for sharpening all they do is send it off somewhere where some spotty oik will just stick it on a machine regardless of what is required to sharpen and set it :x

Surely Lie Nielsen (and other leading tool manufacturers) are missing a trick here. They make the saws, users keep saying there isn't a suitable saw set on the market to maintain them, yet they don't make one :?

Cheers :wink:

Paul

 

[woodbloke]

Paul - agree absolutely. The set recommended By TLN in the blurb that you get with each saw is still available....but they stopped making it in about 1952 or so and was only available in the US (as far as I know) so if you're very lucky you might find one in your local second hand tool shop (good job we've got one of those in Salisbury). I did come close a while back and got hold of a very similar model to the one recommended but it wasn't quite what was needed so I took it back. Yes, I think there is definitely a case for TLN or someone making a decent saw set that will enable their saws to be set be the people that own them - Rob

 

[Paul Chapman]

Perhaps a few emails to TLN are needed :wink:

Cheers :wink:

Paul

 

[woodbloke]

Paul - sorted , copy of epost to TLN - Rob

Tom - In discussion on the UKWorkshop forum there has been some considerable interest in trying to find a decent saw set to sharpen and set your dovetail and other saws. The current sets available in the UK are simply not fine enough to set your saws and the one recommended in your leaflet with each saw is not available over here and I think went out of production shortly after the war...(WW2 that is) Is there any chance that you may be producing a saw set at some time in the future? Have a look at the link below:

https://www.ukworkshop.co.uk/forums/view ... 291#182291

Allot of people this side of the pond have your gear including the saws and are a little frustrated (including myself) that we don't have a way of setting the teeth

Best Regards - Rob Stoakley