We can talk about which is delusory when we compare the outcome of this election to 2017 and 2019. And re the causes, well yes, that is the point. You need to win lots of individual seats, not overall national share of votes per se. That's where building broader coalitions of voters rather than just appealing to a committed fanbase counts.
THE FOURTH OF JULY
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Jacob
What goes around comes around.
I can see the simple logic of lose some (leftie) votes where they are in excess and pick up some (floating redneck) where they are scarce but I don't think there's anything in Starmer's strategy that effective. It's just wishful thinking. Credit will be claimed if it turns out that way but I'd still put it down to chance.
Polls so far show labour with 40.4% of the vote. 2017 Labour had 40%. Should be cause for concern that Starmer can't improve on 2017 result i.e. no swing to Labour evident yet, winning will be by default.
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Keith Cocker
Established Member
4th July and the NHS. I’m sure the NHS figures high in all our thinking about how to vote next week. This has some well informed observations on the main parties manifesto commitments on the NHS.
https://open.substack.com/pub/jujul...p?r=26ozqp&utm_campaign=post&utm_medium=email
https://open.substack.com/pub/jujul...p?r=26ozqp&utm_campaign=post&utm_medium=email
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Terry - Somerset
Established Member
Why are you apparently incapable of referencing the most RECENT general election performance when the then incumbent Labour leader managed only 32%?
Terry - Somerset
Established Member
The link is a personal view of a solitary doctor. She may be right, she may be wrong. As a piece of balanced considered analysis it is completely lacking, no matter how sincerely her views are held.
Decent healthcare is important. Funding it adequately, irrespective of how it is best delivered is critical.
Kings fund paper - is a far more thoughtful critique of NHS performance compared to other European providers and the different models used for funding. That the UK must change to deliver the best rather than (overall) just average is beyond argument. Linking it to "vote Labour" is a simplistic nonsense.
Jacob
What goes around comes around.
First because the establishment tries to completely ignore the 2017 result. It hardly gets a mention in the MSM. They want to write it out of history.
Second 2019 was somewhat extra ordinary in that the establishment as a whole including the right faction of the Labour party were solidly united in ending the Corbyn ascendency, in an unprecedented manner. They were deeply shocked and alarmed. The media ran page after page against Corbyn, with the Guardian leading the pack, with wave after wave of hysterical false accusations of antisemitism.
Labour right including Starmer and the admin helped to sabotage any further hopes of a Labour win in 2019.
Third because the whole 2019 election was also dominated by the insanity of Brexit and Johnson, which made it even more atypical.
It was a crazy time and it is still playing out. Next weeks election is meaningless IMHO perhaps things will be more balanced by the next one.
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Yes, it was extraordinary. I remember a tory backbencher sitting across the house from Corbyn, calling him an 'antisemitic Marxist' and getting away with it - Corbyn just stared at her, the speaker didn't intervene. You have to wonder at the manipulation of public and political consciousness that allows someone to get away with such nonsense.
Jacob
What goes around comes around.
and he got so little support from his own side - quite the opposite they conspired against him, including pathetic Starmer. It will not be forgotten - they helped lose Labour the 2017 election and cranked up their efforts in 2019.
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selectortone
Still waking up not dead in the morning
That's strange because I could have sworn that Corbyn lost.
Jacob
What goes around comes around.
Corbyn on the job!
Starmer mob are losing votes by dropping in their own men, mafia style. Let's hope they will regret it.
https://morningstaronline.co.uk/article/we-wont-let-you-abandon-palestinians-corbyn-tells-starmer
Starmer mob are losing votes by dropping in their own men, mafia style. Let's hope they will regret it.
https://morningstaronline.co.uk/article/we-wont-let-you-abandon-palestinians-corbyn-tells-starmer
selectortone
Still waking up not dead in the morning
What job? Losing Labour the election? (Again...)
Yorkieguy
Established Member
A constant theme for decades now by Labour re the NHS has been: 'NHS - Safe in our Hands', and 'Don't let the Tories sell off the NHS'.
When people talk of ‘privatisation of the NHS by stealth’, they might like to reflect on where the initiatives came from, and it’s not Tories, neither was in done ‘by stealth’ - It began in earnest under Tony Blair, Labour Government (1997 – 2007). I'm not saying private sector involvement is a bad thing - I just want to make the point to those in this thread who - on a matter of principle do think it's a bad thing - should be aware of how private sector involvement came about.
From the 1997 Blair's government, there were three Secretaries of State:
Frank Dobson 2 May 1997 – 11 October 1999
Alan Milburn 11 October 1999 – 13 June 2003
John Reid - 13 June 2003 – 6 May 2005
Frank Dobson:
He was 'old Labour' and found it hard to build an impact.
He wanted to keep the NHS just as it was, and to throw more and more money at it. He faced interference from civil servants, who claimed that prime minister Tony Blair raised the issue of further private sector involvement in meetings with Dobson, which Dobson said "just wasn't true". He had his hands tied by the decision to stick within spending limits set by the previous Conservative government and wrote a memo to Blair saying, "If you want a first-class service, you have to pay a first-class fare – and we're not doing it.".
Dobson's abolition of the internal market in the NHS was reversed by his successor, Alan Milburn, who Dobson said was "carried away with the idea that the private sector could make a big contribution", attacking Alan Milburn for ‘making a terrible mess" of the NHS. Private sector involvement was enthusiastically pursued by Alan Milburn and it’s worth dwelling on his role as Health Secretary:
He was responsible for driving through Private Finance Initiative deals on hospitals, for continuing the reduction in waiting times and delivering modernisation in the NHS. In 2002. Milburn introduced NHS Foundation Trusts, originally envisaged as a new form of not-for-profit provider, and "described them at the time as “a sort of halfway house between the public and private sectors"
Milburn later described his reforms as "getting the private sector into the NHS to work alongside the public sector”. Stating: We gave more choice to patients. We paid more for the hospitals that were doing more rather than paying everyone the same”.
Following his resignation as Secretary of State for Health, Alan Milburn took a post as an adviser to Bridgeport Capital - a venture capital firm heavily involved in financing private health-care firms moving into the NHS, including Alliance Medical, Match Group, Medica and the Robinia Care Group.
In 2013 Milburn joined PriceWaterhouseCoopers (PwC) as Chair of PwC's UK Health Industry Oversight Board, whose objective is to drive change in the health sector, and to assist PwC in growing its presence in the health market. Milburn continued to be chairman of the European Advisory Board at Bridgeport Capital whose activities include financing private health care companies providing services to the NHS and continued as a member of the Healthcare Advisory Panel at Lloyds Pharmacy. As of 2022 he remains a Senior Adviser to PwC.
John Reid - 13 June 2003 – 6 May 2005.
His appointment as Health Secretary took him into his fourth cabinet job in less than a year.
4 April 2003 – 13 June 2003 – Leader of the House of Commons
4 April 2003 – 13 June 2003 – Lord President of the Council
24 October 2002 – 4 April 2003 – Minister without Portfolio & Chairman of the Labour Party.
14 October 2002 – 24 October 2002 – First Minister of Northern Ireland.
25 January 2001 – 24 October 2002 – Secretary of State for Northern Ireland.
As Health Secretary, Reid controversially increasing capacity by introducing private companies to run treatment centres for knee, hip and cataract operations. He claimed this provided extra staff and extra capacity to help treat more patients in the NHS at an unprecedented rate, as indeed it did and that continues to be so to the present day. It’s cost effective, and millions have benefitted from it, my wife and I included. It’s cost effective, and there’s chance as there is with large NHS infirmaries which have A&E Departments, that operations will risk being cancelled at short notice due to operating theatres being needed for emergency, such as car accidents with multiple casualties.
Rachel Reeves and Wes Sweeting will, I think, do whatever's necessary to ensure taxpayers get best value for money, and as patients, the best service, for which - after all - they are paying. Whether that means more or less private sector involvement in the NHS is neither here nor there. As Sweeting says 'The NHS is not a shrine - it's a service.
In addressing the NHS Annual Conference in Sweeting said:
Quote:
Money cannot continue to be poured into the NHS, the shadow health secretary has said, as he compared the head of the health service to Louis the 14th.
He told the NHS Providers’ annual conference in Liverpool there was a risk the NHS would become the state owing to how much it costs the taxpayer.
He said: “There is no route out of the crisis in the NHS that requires simply spending more money”, adding that the Department of Health and Social Care accounts for 42% of departmental spending. He told delegates: “I like Amanda Pritchard (NHS chief executive) very much, but we’re in danger of making her Louis the 14th – ‘l’etat, c’est moi.’” Louis the 14th reigned France from 1638 – 1715 and is associated with the saying “L’État, c’est moi” (the state, it’s me).
I think the NHS has to think really seriously about how it spends taxpayers' money and how sustainable it looks if it continues to grow and grow.
Mr Streeting later added: “When you look at the NHS today, as it stands as a proportion of public spending and the size of the state, I think we should be anxious for two reasons. “There is a real risk that the NHS becomes the state and sometimes I hear people suggesting that the NHS should do things that go well beyond the boundaries of what I think a health system ought to do, to pick up slack in other parts of the public sector.
“Secondly, when money is tight, as it is and as it’s going to be for the foreseeable future, every penny that goes into the NHS is potentially a penny that could have gone into schools, into policing and criminal justice, into tackling child poverty. “And so, we can’t have a situation where, because we know that the NHS sits at the top of public concerns… we just assume that we can continue to get more money out of the public at the expense of other public services.”
He said the case he would have to make to Rachel Reeves if she becomes chancellor is “Why is this investment in the NHS going to be better spent and more impactful than investment in other very worthy causes? So, for that reason, I think the NHS has to think really seriously about how it spends taxpayers’ money and how sustainable it looks if it continues to grow and grow.”
End quote.
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/nhs-wes-streeting-louis-money-liverpool-b2447872.html
It all makes sense to me.
Times they are a changing.
When people talk of ‘privatisation of the NHS by stealth’, they might like to reflect on where the initiatives came from, and it’s not Tories, neither was in done ‘by stealth’ - It began in earnest under Tony Blair, Labour Government (1997 – 2007). I'm not saying private sector involvement is a bad thing - I just want to make the point to those in this thread who - on a matter of principle do think it's a bad thing - should be aware of how private sector involvement came about.
From the 1997 Blair's government, there were three Secretaries of State:
Frank Dobson 2 May 1997 – 11 October 1999
Alan Milburn 11 October 1999 – 13 June 2003
John Reid - 13 June 2003 – 6 May 2005
Frank Dobson:
He was 'old Labour' and found it hard to build an impact.
He wanted to keep the NHS just as it was, and to throw more and more money at it. He faced interference from civil servants, who claimed that prime minister Tony Blair raised the issue of further private sector involvement in meetings with Dobson, which Dobson said "just wasn't true". He had his hands tied by the decision to stick within spending limits set by the previous Conservative government and wrote a memo to Blair saying, "If you want a first-class service, you have to pay a first-class fare – and we're not doing it.".
Dobson's abolition of the internal market in the NHS was reversed by his successor, Alan Milburn, who Dobson said was "carried away with the idea that the private sector could make a big contribution", attacking Alan Milburn for ‘making a terrible mess" of the NHS. Private sector involvement was enthusiastically pursued by Alan Milburn and it’s worth dwelling on his role as Health Secretary:
He was responsible for driving through Private Finance Initiative deals on hospitals, for continuing the reduction in waiting times and delivering modernisation in the NHS. In 2002. Milburn introduced NHS Foundation Trusts, originally envisaged as a new form of not-for-profit provider, and "described them at the time as “a sort of halfway house between the public and private sectors"
Milburn later described his reforms as "getting the private sector into the NHS to work alongside the public sector”. Stating: We gave more choice to patients. We paid more for the hospitals that were doing more rather than paying everyone the same”.
Following his resignation as Secretary of State for Health, Alan Milburn took a post as an adviser to Bridgeport Capital - a venture capital firm heavily involved in financing private health-care firms moving into the NHS, including Alliance Medical, Match Group, Medica and the Robinia Care Group.
In 2013 Milburn joined PriceWaterhouseCoopers (PwC) as Chair of PwC's UK Health Industry Oversight Board, whose objective is to drive change in the health sector, and to assist PwC in growing its presence in the health market. Milburn continued to be chairman of the European Advisory Board at Bridgeport Capital whose activities include financing private health care companies providing services to the NHS and continued as a member of the Healthcare Advisory Panel at Lloyds Pharmacy. As of 2022 he remains a Senior Adviser to PwC.
John Reid - 13 June 2003 – 6 May 2005.
His appointment as Health Secretary took him into his fourth cabinet job in less than a year.
4 April 2003 – 13 June 2003 – Leader of the House of Commons
4 April 2003 – 13 June 2003 – Lord President of the Council
24 October 2002 – 4 April 2003 – Minister without Portfolio & Chairman of the Labour Party.
14 October 2002 – 24 October 2002 – First Minister of Northern Ireland.
25 January 2001 – 24 October 2002 – Secretary of State for Northern Ireland.
As Health Secretary, Reid controversially increasing capacity by introducing private companies to run treatment centres for knee, hip and cataract operations. He claimed this provided extra staff and extra capacity to help treat more patients in the NHS at an unprecedented rate, as indeed it did and that continues to be so to the present day. It’s cost effective, and millions have benefitted from it, my wife and I included. It’s cost effective, and there’s chance as there is with large NHS infirmaries which have A&E Departments, that operations will risk being cancelled at short notice due to operating theatres being needed for emergency, such as car accidents with multiple casualties.
Rachel Reeves and Wes Sweeting will, I think, do whatever's necessary to ensure taxpayers get best value for money, and as patients, the best service, for which - after all - they are paying. Whether that means more or less private sector involvement in the NHS is neither here nor there. As Sweeting says 'The NHS is not a shrine - it's a service.
In addressing the NHS Annual Conference in Sweeting said:
Quote:
Money cannot continue to be poured into the NHS, the shadow health secretary has said, as he compared the head of the health service to Louis the 14th.
He told the NHS Providers’ annual conference in Liverpool there was a risk the NHS would become the state owing to how much it costs the taxpayer.
He said: “There is no route out of the crisis in the NHS that requires simply spending more money”, adding that the Department of Health and Social Care accounts for 42% of departmental spending. He told delegates: “I like Amanda Pritchard (NHS chief executive) very much, but we’re in danger of making her Louis the 14th – ‘l’etat, c’est moi.’” Louis the 14th reigned France from 1638 – 1715 and is associated with the saying “L’État, c’est moi” (the state, it’s me).
I think the NHS has to think really seriously about how it spends taxpayers' money and how sustainable it looks if it continues to grow and grow.
Mr Streeting later added: “When you look at the NHS today, as it stands as a proportion of public spending and the size of the state, I think we should be anxious for two reasons. “There is a real risk that the NHS becomes the state and sometimes I hear people suggesting that the NHS should do things that go well beyond the boundaries of what I think a health system ought to do, to pick up slack in other parts of the public sector.
“Secondly, when money is tight, as it is and as it’s going to be for the foreseeable future, every penny that goes into the NHS is potentially a penny that could have gone into schools, into policing and criminal justice, into tackling child poverty. “And so, we can’t have a situation where, because we know that the NHS sits at the top of public concerns… we just assume that we can continue to get more money out of the public at the expense of other public services.”
He said the case he would have to make to Rachel Reeves if she becomes chancellor is “Why is this investment in the NHS going to be better spent and more impactful than investment in other very worthy causes? So, for that reason, I think the NHS has to think really seriously about how it spends taxpayers’ money and how sustainable it looks if it continues to grow and grow.”
End quote.
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/nhs-wes-streeting-louis-money-liverpool-b2447872.html
It all makes sense to me.
Times they are a changing.
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Many a big business has gone to the wall simply because they just kept throwing money at the problem without actually fixing the issues, if your boat has holes in it then rather than just keep bailing the water out it is best to repair the holes .
Keith Cocker
Established Member
You really are weeing in your own nest.
Last edited by a moderator:
selectortone
Still waking up not dead in the morning
Twice as many Britons want tax rises as want cuts, survey finds
https://www.theguardian.com/politic...s-as-want-cuts-survey-finds?CMP=share_btn_url
This confirms something that I've been convinced of throughout the election campaign. The Tories constant fear mongering about Labour raising taxes is barking totally up the wrong tree.
The real issues of concern for most people are the NHS, crime, housing, the environment, education, energy bills etc, etc. NOT some fictitious extra tax bill.
My three kids all say they would be prepared to pay more tax if sensible measures could be taken to address at least some of the mess this country is in. I would. Just about all my mates would. I believe most sensible people would.
https://www.theguardian.com/politic...s-as-want-cuts-survey-finds?CMP=share_btn_url
This confirms something that I've been convinced of throughout the election campaign. The Tories constant fear mongering about Labour raising taxes is barking totally up the wrong tree.
The real issues of concern for most people are the NHS, crime, housing, the environment, education, energy bills etc, etc. NOT some fictitious extra tax bill.
My three kids all say they would be prepared to pay more tax if sensible measures could be taken to address at least some of the mess this country is in. I would. Just about all my mates would. I believe most sensible people would.
sploo
Somewhat extinguished member
The "stealth" is because the NHS is popular, and politicians like to be seen as champions of the service (and certainly do not want to be seen to be destroying it). Sadly, that is the intent of many on the economic right of the UK's political divide; but it is implemented quietly, for obvious reasons.
Keith Cocker
Established Member
Jacob
What goes around comes around.
Well I'd like to see the old chap win his seat again. He was (still is) very badly treated by the Starmer mob.
He didn't put himself forwards as leader of the party in the first place. He was democratically elected by the membership, on the basis of his political views. He was dumped on the basis of false accusations and a massive character assassination, which was also an attack on party democracy itself. Without party democracy Labour is as meaningless as Reform UK.
Keith Cocker
Established Member
I guess most of us suffer from a childish faith in the idea that truth and justice will, or could win through. The reality is that such concepts are reduced in our culture to the same level as tv dramas and the adverts that appear between them.
Trump is now partially immune to legal prosecution for his actions at the end of his presidency. The Supreme Court, arbiters of 'Truth and Justice the American Way' (Superman) is constituted by 6 judges appointed by Republican leaders, 3 by Democrats. 3 appointed by trump himself. Le Pen spewing bile that 1/3rd of French voters seem to think Right. Farage inventing himself as a man of the people and apparently getting away with it, blaming Europe, blaming immigrants, all True in the lazy minds of millions.
We'd all like to think that someone who stands and speaks the complete truth and seeks justice for people could win out, but that is not the world we live in. So if Starmer 'plays the game' to keep the most corrupt of our culture at bay, and introduces decent policies by stealth, then that's as good as we can hope for.
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