THE FOURTH OF JULY

[RobinBHM]

Should it be continued by Starmer?

Labour dont have a policy of austerity, but its a matter of fact cost of borrowing is high and money will be very tight.....whoever wins power.

had Corbyn won, we wouldve been in the same boat, maybe worse

 

[Jacob]

Labour dont have a policy of austerity, but its a matter of fact cost of borrowing is high and money will be very tight.....whoever wins power.

You obviously haven't heard them talking of being unable to afford to honour their earlier pledges. That's the excuse for austerity.

had Corbyn won, we wouldve been in the same boat, maybe worse

Beside the point. You should stop worrying about Corbyn he is history even if he does hold on to his seat as an independent.
The issue now is Starmer and his lack of commitment to anything; or promises of "change" but without too many changes..

 

[RobinBHM]

You obviously haven't heard them talking of being unable to afford to honour their earlier pledges

how is it "an excuse" Jacob?

are you saying covid and energy crisis didnt happen?

Starmer has nothing to "honour", all his pledges amounted to are something for the public to vote for........and it is very clear the public wont vote for high levels of unfunded spending during a period of economic crisis and expensive cost of borrowing

That's the excuse for austerity

no its a reason for tight fiscal control

or "change" but without too many changes..

too many changes mean not winning power

these are the choices:

A) Labour party offering a limited scope manifesto that is likely to win

B) Labour party offering a "transformative agenda" that would fail and put Conservatives back in power

 

[Jacob]

Starmer the socialist! Red Keith at it again!
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2024/05/27/keir-starmer-socialist-labour-general-election/
The Telegraph has noticed even if Robin hasn't.
Starmer's election strategy seems to be to say almost anything, and then to contradict himself, in the hopes that people will just pick on what they want to hear and ignore the rest, as Robin has done.
The trouble is the media will pick up on everything people don't want to hear, and there is a lot of it!
But not to worry - I don't believe he is a socialist he's just lying as usual.

 

[Spectric]

Starmer's election strategy seems to be to say almost anything, and then to contradict himself,

That is why one of his nicknames is flipper, no not because he sounds like a dolphin but because he flips back and forth depending on who he is addressing.

 

[Terry - Somerset]

Starmer made pledges in his leadership campaign including abolish universal credit, nationalise rail, mail, energy , water, ban outsourcing NHS, strengthen workers and trade union rights etc.

These are probably now largely history - in fairness the manifesto yet to emerge may (but probably won't) change this conclusion.

He could make a superficially plausible explanation for their exclusion - Covid and Liz Truss? Reality - he was simply telling those who could vote what they wanted to hear - normal political behaviour all too common on both sides of the political divide, lacking basic integrity.

The assertion that he has changed Labour permanently is doubtful. Most of those entitled to vote in leadership elections - MPs and Party members - are still there. I doubt that his rhetoric and personality has won them over to embrace a new set of beliefs.

 

[Jacob]

MSM dominated by right-wing mega-rich non doms. Alternative view of Morning Star is always refreshing. https://morningstaronline.co.uk/article/editorial-contours-2024-election-are-now-taking-shape
Used to be called "The Daily Worker"

 

[RobinBHM]

That is why one of his nicknames is flipper, no not because he sounds like a dolphin but because he flips back and forth depending on who he is addressing.

the problem with First Past the Post is that to win you need to win over a whole raft of swing voters in marginal seats

How many voters actually influence the outcome of a general election?
the answer is not many.

In 2019 141 seats were won with less than a 10% majority of votes -so lets say an average of 5,000 votes, that means it only needs about 600,000 voters in theory to vote differently.

And theres the problem: to win you need to get a small number of voters in a lot of marginal seats to support you.

That means in practice that somebody wanting to win has to appear to give rather vague messaging which mean different things to different people

in 2019 a Conservative key slogan was "levelling up" what did it actually mean A = not a lot


We all moan about politicians being dishonest but FPTP forces that onto them

 

[RobinBHM]

lacking basic integrity

as Ive mentioned above, the FPTP system forces politicians to be like that

 

[Yorkieguy]

So would we have been better off without NHS, council housing and other public spending ventures?

Of course not - I didn't say or infer that.

You said after WW2 'the economy was booming'. It very clearly wasn't, and I made the point that the country was bankrupt and spending money that it didn't have, rather than creating wealth to help fund such activities by productive revenue-earning activities in goods and services. As I said earlier, Britain didn't pay off its loans at the end of WW2 to America and Canada until 2006.

It will be interesting to see how Labour manages to fulfil all its pledges and promises and meet the raised expectations of the electorate, one of which is Rachel Reeve's promise not to increased Income Tax or N.I. I guess they'll do as the Tories have done. Freeze the threshold at which 'hard working families' start to pay tax.

The 40% tax bracket is the 'higher rate' income tax band for those who earn between £50,271 - £125,140. There are four rates for income tax, starting with the personal allowance, and then moving on to the basic rate, higher rate, and the additional rate. Your Personal Allowance goes down by £1 for every £2 that your adjusted net income is above £100,000. This means your allowance is zero if your income is £125,140 or above.

Worth bearing in mind that whatever level of income tax you pay, when you come to spend it on goods and services, most will carry 20% VAT, so for every £100 you earn, apart from income tax, you'll pay 20% tax on spending what you're left with.

I think we should fasten our seatbelts and brace ourselves for a bumpy ride.

 

[RobinBHM]

I think we should fasten our seatbelts and brace ourselves for a bumpy ride

the bumpy ride has been well under way for years

 

[sploo]

It will be interesting to see how Labour manages to fulfil all its pledges and promises and meet the raised expectations of the electorate, one of which is Rachel Reeve's promise not to increased Income Tax or N.I. I guess they'll do as the Tories have done. Freeze the threshold at which 'hard working families' start to pay tax.

They could try to tackle the (literal) billions of £ lost to corporate tax avoidance schemes. I'm not holding my breath of course, but it would be nice.

 

[Spectric]

They could try to tackle the (literal) billions of £ lost to corporate tax avoidance schemes.

Just replace the word tax avoidance with evasion so it becomes illegal and that if you earn money then pay your tax on it which makes it fair for all.

 

[sploo]

Just replace the word tax avoidance with evasion so it becomes illegal and that if you earn money then pay your tax on it which makes it fair for all.

Would be nice, but the practice of legalised tax avoidance is big business, and probably very hard to tackle - at least for any one single government. I can live in hope though.

 

[Terry - Somerset]

There is a fundamental difference - avoidance is legal and evasion not!

An example - ISA's were originally established to encourage saving, particularly for retirement. Any income or withdrawals are free of tax. Assume I have £10k to invest at a rate before tax of 5%.

The cash ISA generates £500 tax free interest. If I put the money in a normal savings account interest generated is also £500 but tax of £100 or £200 is charged (tax is either 20% or higher 40% rate).

Is avoiding tax through investing in an ISA rather than normal savings account illegal.

IMHO absolutely not. We should all have the freedom to organise our affairs as we see fit. I am not condoning evasion, but the definition of that which is illegal needs to be very clear.

It is the overly complex nature of the UK tax system which encourages efforts to avoid tax. IMHO a radical reform is required to simplify, rather than continually tweaking the rules in every budget.

 

[TRITON]

had Corbyn won, we wouldve been in the same boat, maybe worse

What exactly is it you have against Jeremy Corbyn, Robin ? Has he harmed you in some way.

 

[Jacob]

Of course not - I didn't say or infer that.

You did rather infer it.

You said after WW2 'the economy was booming'. It very clearly wasn't, .....

It very clearly was - in that we did manage to implement these massive improvements in our lives. The rest is detail.

.....I think we should fasten our seatbelts and brace ourselves for a bumpy ride.....

I agree!

 

[Jacob]

The skills required to motivate others to work collectively are completely different from those required of a craftsman.

....

Are they that different? Not just a different craft?

 

[Jacob]

You mean people will no longer be allowed to spend their money in whatever legal way they choose?

Yes that is what government is all about. Protecting some freedoms, denying others, allocating and managing resources, taking with one hand, giving with the other. Ideally for the benefit of and with the agreement of all.

Sorry, just revisiting this!

 

[Keith Cocker]

Using terms like "bean counter" is just as bad as the "bean counters" looking down on those who work with their hands, in my opinion. I'm sure we need people to perform all sorts of roles in society, even the telephone sanitizers, although I do think the remuneration is unfairly tilted towards some occupations.
The thing I find distressing, though, is that we appear to have run out of lettuce jokes.

Perhaps the Rev Vennells began her management meetings with “Lettuce pray “