The China Effect

[Eshmiel]

Yesterday I wuz tired after a morning gym session (use it or lose it, even at 75, eh!) and an afternoon spoon-making with two novices who occasionally come to the shed for WW larnin' & fun. So, having developed an interest in relief carving and its tools, I went shopping.

I've already shopped for half a dozen carving tools (4 X Ashley Iles and 2 X Henry Taylor) required to do the exercises and projects of the Chris Pye YouTube series on relief carving. Having read up on his commissioning stuff (in two Pye books I have on tools and techniques) I had a go. Five successes and one cack-up - I overground a #9-14 to make not just an uneven cutting edge but one with a microscopic spot of bluing. Doh!

So - practice needed on grinding the carvers.

I noticed that Axminster has a set of carving tools (12 in a roll) for a mere fifty four quids. I'd looked and dismissed them as probably cheap rubbish but further exploration on carving tools reveals that they are probably identical to the Schaaf set currently being sold and gushed over as very good in the USA.

They're made in China.

So, I've bought a set to practice the commissioning process but perhaps also to obtain some very inexpensive but good quality carving chisels that I might come to use as and when my carving skills and ambitions develop. I thought I might document some of my commissioning attempts here, with photos. I can probably regard one or three of these less-than-a-fiver-each tools as sacrificial lambs to the education gods. But who knows - I may get it "right first time" (har har).

Jacob will tell me how to do it by hand ..... but I'll cheat and not tell him.

 

[artie]

Not nonsense - the several factors that make "better work" do include better tools - fit for purpose as a minimum and perhaps "so enmeshed with a user skill that the tool becomes almost invisible" as a maximum.

In other words, it isn't an either-or matter (tool quality or skill) but both; plus other factors such as a well-formed intent, an understanding of the traditions (in skills, tool-construction. & maintenance) and a culture's "messages in forms and appearances", etc..

************

As an experiment, try riding a poorly made bicycle-shaped object from Argos or Amazon's cheapest lines then a high quality racing or touring bike around a ten mile hilly route with some difficult surfaces. If you're a skilled cyclist, you'll survive. If not, you may get gravel rash as you fall off the cheapie. Even if you survive, the times taken, pleasures experienced and dangers to others encountered along the route will all be markedly different.

We humans seem to enjoy making things black or white, positive or negative; right or wrong; this or that ...... simple binary yes/no answers to everything. But, as my granddaughter's favourite T-short declares, "I think you'll find its more complicated than that."

I know it's the internet and I can't expect much, but you quoted my post and denied it and then went of on a unrelated rant.
We all know that better tools can be desirable.
As you said fit for purpose is the minimum. If it's not fit for purpose it's not a tool, So if it's fit for purpose how would a more expensive fit for purpose be better?
It might look better, it might be made of gold, Brittany Spears might hold it to her bosom in an ad, it won't necessarily work better.

I don't know why you started on about bikes, but again the price of a bicycle means nothing to swmbo, as she can't ride a bike.

I do know what you are saying and not all things are black and white but your point is different to my point.

 

[artie]

True and false,

I'll leave it there.

 

[Jacob]

.......I've bought a set to practice the commissioning process.......

"the commissioning process" is pure modern sharpening jargon - you can spot it a mile off! Often also referred to "prepping", but two long words sound more technical and important!
PS What do you do after "commissioning", take it for test flights?
In fact if you can't just quickly sharpen and use the thing immediately, then it's probably faulty and you should send it back.

Jacob will tell me how to do it by hand ..... but I'll cheat and not tell him.

Some by hand no prob. Some by mdf disc on my lathe, with autosol etc. Inside gouges done on the rounded off edge of the disc.
I bought a cheapo set of 12 Faithful "carving" chisels/gouges. Not too good except for a couple of the gouges. The whole set was only £15 new a few years back, so still good value for two gouges! Their later sets look a bit better and are pricier.

 

[Eshmiel]

I know it's the internet and I can't expect much, but you quoted my post and denied it and then went of on a unrelated rant.
We all know that better tools can be desirable.
As you said fit for purpose is the minimum. If it's not fit for purpose it's not a tool, So if it's fit for purpose how would a more expensive fit for purpose be better?
It might look better, it might be made of gold, Brittany Spears might hold it to her bosom in an ad, it won't necessarily work better.

I don't know why you started on about bikes, but again the price of a bicycle means nothing to swmbo, as she can't ride a bike.

I do know what you are saying and not all things are black and white but your point is different to my point.

Don't be so sensitive. No one is criticising or demeaning you. We can all make what "points" we like in a conversation, which is what this is. I'm sure you don't expect me, either, to agree with every word and notion you post.

************

Many TSOs (not fit for purpose tool-shaped-objects) are sold as "tools". Many buyers go on assuming that's what they are even though their attempted usages fail, thinking that "its just me".

There are grades of performance-quality in proper tools. Those fit for purpose but only just will take more effort, care, maintenance and other attentions than will tools that are better-made. Some will say that these extra efforts impart more in the way of necessary skills to their users, which is true to a point but is still in some way reducing the performance of their woodworking skills, time, pleasure and perhaps quality.

The bicycle thing is an analogy, attempting to illuminate that the quality of tools and their design/engineering is important and variable in all sorts of things as those qualities can reduce or enhance the abilities of the users to achieve something.

 

[artie]

Don't be so sensitive. No one is criticising or demeaning you. We can all make what "points" we like in a conversation, which is what this is. I'm sure you don't expect me, either, to agree with every word and notion you post.

************

Many TSOs (not fit for purpose tool-shaped-objects) are sold as "tools". Many buyers go on assuming that's what they are even though their attempted usages fail, thinking that "its just me".

There are grades of performance-quality in proper tools. Those fit for purpose but only just will take more effort, care, maintenance and other attentions than will tools that are better-made. Some will say that these extra efforts impart more in the way of necessary skills to their users, which is true to a point but is still in some way reducing the performance of their woodworking skills, time, pleasure and perhaps quality.

The bicycle thing is an analogy, attempting to illuminate that the quality of tools and their design/engineering is important and variable in all sorts of things as those qualities can reduce or enhance the abilities of the users to achieve something.

Why keep quoting my post and then go on to talk about something differen't

 

[Delaney]

"If you buy cheap tools your work is not as good."??

Not everyone can afford to buy a Rolls Royce

A Rolls Royce is a status symbol.
A Toyota will perform better.
.

 

[Delaney]

Some excellent cheap stuff out there, particularly old and 2nd hand. Old or new you have to know how to set them up, sharpen etc and even a cheapo tool can be made to work well.

Self evident, but new and expensive does not always mean better

Dunno you can buy 4 or 5 top quality old planes for the price of one of the popular new ones

But if you speculate that expensive tools will make work easier you very likely will be be wrong and you'd be losing money from the start!
If in doubt buy cheap. It may do the job, if not you haven't lost much and you may have learned something!

I didn’t say you had to buy expensive.

Also worth noting that more expensive tools, sell for more money and if you buy better tools used, instead of finding older ones that need restoring, you can get on with more work

Penny pinching is expensive.

 

[niall Y]

There are certainly many " token goods" around - those that have a passable resemblance to the real thing but aren't up to the job. With woodworking tools this can often be down to the quality of the steel. Some Forstner bits, for example , will not hold an edge, simply because the steel is of such poor quality. Often , the only way to judge a tools quality is to try it out in earnest. by which time it is too late, as one has usually already purchased it.

Simply being able to afford quality tools doesn't make one a better woodworker. We have all heard the phrase "All the gear - and no idea" We have also heard the expression, " A bad workman blames his tools"

Woodworkers of the past certainly didn't have access the the plethora of tools and machinery that we do now. But, that certainly didn't restrict them to producing second-rate objects. It surely isn't solely down to the quality of the tools, but the skill to overcome its limitations, which produces quality work.

 

[Jacob]

I didn’t say you had to buy expensive.

Also worth noting that more expensive tools, sell for more money and if you buy better tools used, instead of finding older ones that need restoring,

To be realistic "restoring" is a hobby in itself. Most old tools I've ever bought just need rust brushing off and sharpening. Planes can need a bit more but it's a valuable learning experience

you can get on with more work

Penny pinching is expensive.

 

[Ross Buchanan]

The phrase "it is a bad workman who blames his tools" is one of those truisms that gets misused.
If you are a skilled tradesman, you should be confident that your tools are adequate and you know how to use them. Fine- no disagreement.
"I did my best but I was provided with an inadequate tool" is absolutely not the same.

 

[Ross Buchanan]

So the solution to mental health problems is to live on the breadline. Excellent.

How on earth is that your understanding of what I said?