The China Effect

[spanner48]

That is why our current system is failing so many, some people are skilled in using their hands whilst others can crunch numbers but the current system pushes them all to get a degree. The most daft being for nurses where it is as much people skills as anything and to become a nurse should not require a degree, maybe to progress to a certain level a degree would be needed but for many why.

Long ago, my girlfriend - then a volunteer teacher in the New Hebrides - decided that teaching was "not for her". I suggested nursing instead. I proposed the only school I'd heard of: the Nightingale School, at St. Thomas' Hospital. The first, oldest and most prestigious nursing school in the world. She applied. They fell over themselves to accept her, because she had got an A Level ! She started, from day one, on the wards – mixing hands-on learning with classes in medicine and health science. She rose subsequently to become Secretary to the Royal College of Nursing.

Nowadays, the Nightingale School is part of King's College, London [rather than attached to St. Thomas' Hospital], and you can't even apply except as a graduate.

 

[Ross Buchanan]

I said to my kids -"you have to be competitive. If you can compete against a computer in India, great. Otherwise you've got to do what a computer can't do"
So far, one works for the national trust, ones a carpenter, one is a computer spod.
Next one is a barmaid and learning stained glass making. Number 5 wants to farm.
All working and earning. Only one with a degree is Mrs B, who has never really had a job!

 

[JackEasy]

It was an assertion based on human nature, a quick google and the data tends to support my assertion, but I could just have been lucky and I've cherry picked something that suits.

View attachment 196784

Or perhaps I don't need to cherry pick, as the next 3 or 4 results and news articles all discuss the trend. eg.
https://www.china-briefing.com/news...china-trends-and-implications-for-businesses/

F.

I’m good friends with the previous plant manager of the Bosch industrial boiler plant in Wuhan.
I asked him how wages of workers were at the plant. He told me a qualified welder used to be relatively cheap but in 2018 when I asked him, they were gold dust. Very rare and very well paid as there was massive competition.

 

[spanner48]

I prefer to say balance, something that can do the job and for as long as you anticipate. If it is for a one off then why buy top quality but if it is earning you an income then buy top quality as it will repay itself.

I recall an old craftsman who said that, when he decided to try out a new tool, he started with the cheapest possible that would do the job. If he used it just a few times, and it stayed "on the shelf", he'd only lost a little for the learning. If he used it a lot, and it broke/wore out, he'd buy real quality next time, since he now knew it would pay off.

 

[Eshmiel]

I recal an old craftsman who said that, when he decided to try out a new tool, he started with the cheapest possible that would do the job. If he used it just a few times, and it stayed "on the shelf", he'd only lost a little for the learning. If he used it a lot, and it broke/wore out, he'd buy real quality, since he now knew it would pay off.

In today's world of rabid consumers, there's a large marketplace for second-hand tools. In many cases, a high quality tool will sell, after a few years, for at least what you paid for it. I've done this a number of times with tools from Veritas, Lie-Nielsen, Mafell and even Scheppach (when they made proper tools in Germany). Effectively, you hire the tool for the price of inflation; or perhaps for nothing, if a popular tool is sold after 5 - 10 years for more than you paid for it.

Some brands attract silly prices, out of fashionableness or even "customer loyalty" (sometimes a disguise for a bit of xenophobia, e.g. directed at China). There was a buying frenzy on Lie-Nielsen tools a few years back, possibly also because of manufacturing shortages ..... with US buyers in particular paying more for second hand than the new-tool price to get this or that plane!

Currently there's a slighter frenzy in the US market for Schaaf chisels, which are quite well-made Chinese Pfeil copies using good steel but coming not properly commissioned .... and being sold dirt cheap (down to $60 for a set of 12 in a roll). Because they get very good reviews by buyers, posting in US forums, people are buying them then commissioning and sharpening them for resale at twice the new-price or more. (Might be a marketing chance for those who can hand-sharpen a gouge in 60 seconds on a rock).

***********
Tool reviews around the interwebbery is an interesting topic. How to find those that can be trusted? There's a lot of advertising and PR disguised as a review. But if we can find trustworthy reviews it can save a lot of cash that might be spent on useless TSOs.

 

[Delaney]

I recal an old craftsman who said that, when he decided to try out a new tool, he started with the cheapest possible that would do the job. If he used it just a few times, and it stayed "on the shelf", he'd only lost a little for the learning. If he used it a lot, and it broke/wore out, he'd buy real quality next time, since he now knew it would pay off.

Never liked this theory.
If you buy cheap tools your work is not as good.
Better tools make the work easier.
Better tools allow you to work faster.
If you buy tools twice, you’ve over paid.

Not to say there isn’t some merit in your old craftsmen’s logic but there is also an equally valid point of view.

I find the mantra amongst the old working class is to be frugal but; businesses don’t grow without risk (for the most part).
You have to know when to be cheap and when to be a baller. I find they often didn’t know when to be the latter.
My motto is ‘a small mind builds a small workshop’.
It’s metaphorical, sometimes you have to have a small workshop but; that’s not the point. It’s a state of mind and one I try to avoid.
Speculate to accumulate.

 

[Jameshow]

And what's their mental health like?

What's that! Work or die!!

 

[Ross Buchanan]

What's that! Work or die!!

"Mental Health" considerations are definitely a first-world problem. And quite possibly too much of a consideration.
I encounter a lot of people who complain about one thing or another, can't get motivated....whatever, and think "have you ever been hungry?" I went through some tough times when I was younger, and one thing I learned was "shut up and work. Work earns money, money solves most problems."
Yes I'm a joiner, but over the years I've loaded lorries, stacked shelves, driven trucks, dug ditches, swept floors, painted walls, herded cattle, sheared sheep..... And my rent got paid and there was food on the table

 

[Jacob]

.... Why did japanese/german car makers set up there eu plants in the UK. Because they had a highly skilled workforce with zero domestic competition. How did that come to pass?

Firstly to supply the UK market. Secondly low wages and weak unions.

 

[Jacob]

..... over the years I've loaded lorries, stacked shelves, driven trucks, dug ditches, swept floors, painted walls, herded cattle, sheared sheep..... And my rent got paid and there was food on the table

Wouldn't pay the rent nowadays, let alone buy a house. We've become a nation of property speculators and parasitic landlords.
High rents, low wages, both heavily subsidised by the state with housing benefits and income support, keeping property prices ever higher, including the cost of workspace; particularly burdensome for small businesses.

 

[Ross Buchanan]

Wouldn't pay the rent nowadays, let alone buy a house. We've become a nation of property speculators and parasitic landlords.
High rents, low wages, both heavily subsidised by the state with housing benefits and income support, keeping property prices ever higher, including the cost of workspace; particularly burdensome for small businesses.

So you work 90 hours a week to make the ends meet. Yes, property costs are high, but that's just the way it is- same for all of us.
If you want it to change, vote for someone who will end the benefits culture

 

[spanner48]

Never liked this theory.
If you buy cheap tools your work is not as good.
Better tools make the work easier.
Better tools allow you to work faster.
If you buy tools twice, you’ve over paid.

Not to say there isn’t some merit in your old craftsmen’s logic but there is also an equally valid point of view.

I find the mantra amongst the old working class is to be frugal but; businesses don’t grow without risk (for the most part).
You have to know when to be cheap and when to be a baller. I find they often didn’t know when to be the latter.
My motto is ‘a small mind builds a small workshop’.
It’s metaphorical, sometimes you have to have a small workshop but; that’s not the point. It’s a state of mind and one I try to avoid.
Speculate to accumulate.

"If you buy cheap tools your work is not as good."??

Not everyone can afford to buy a Rolls Royce

 

[Jacob]

Never liked this theory.
If you buy cheap tools your work is not as good.

Some excellent cheap stuff out there, particularly old and 2nd hand. Old or new you have to know how to set them up, sharpen etc and even a cheapo tool can be made to work well.

Better tools make the work easier.
Better tools allow you to work faster.

Self evident, but new and expensive does not always mean better

If you buy tools twice, you’ve over paid.

Dunno you can buy 4 or 5 top quality old planes for the price of one of the popular new ones

....
Speculate to accumulate.

But if you speculate that expensive tools will make work easier you very likely will be be wrong and you'd be losing money from the start!
If in doubt buy cheap. It may do the job, if not you haven't lost much and you may have learned something!

 

[Chris152]

"Mental Health" considerations are definitely a first-world problem. And quite possibly too much of a consideration.
I encounter a lot of people who complain about one thing or another, can't get motivated....whatever, and think "have you ever been hungry?" I went through some tough times when I was younger, and one thing I learned was "shut up and work. Work earns money, money solves most problems."
Yes I'm a joiner, but over the years I've loaded lorries, stacked shelves, driven trucks, dug ditches, swept floors, painted walls, herded cattle, sheared sheep..... And my rent got paid and there was food on the table

So the solution to mental health problems is to live on the breadline. Excellent.

 

[Jacob]

... Yes, property costs are high, but that's just the way it is- same for all of us.

Unfortunately it isn't the same for all of us.

If you want it to change, vote for someone who will end the benefits culture

I agree - much higher minimum wages so that we aren't subsidising low wage employers, rent controls and security of tenure so we aren't subsidising profiteering landlords, high council tax on second homes and empty houses - sufficient to pay for necessary council house building to make up for them.
Could bring property prices down and stop the huge unearned increase in wealth which property owners obtain.

 

[Eshmiel]

So you work 90 hours a week to make the ends meet. Yes, property costs are high, but that's just the way it is- same for all of us.
If you want it to change, vote for someone who will end the benefits culture

Always a difficulty from moment to moment ..... what's necessary to survive, a condition required to make changes so that survival is not made near impossible by the human monsters and their zero-sum games. The moment to moment survival necessities tend to take up all one's time, with no time to go campaigning for "better" no matter how desperately "better" is needed by millions or billions (and not just the humans).

Individuals will, of course, always find it difficult to impossible to (by themselves) make a better world. One way to do it is to attempt to build a politics that will restrain or prevent the sort of human monsters who make survival so hard for billions of others. Currently the monsters have much more effective methods for pushing things the other way. They like "just the way it is" so much that they're increasing it to "just the way we want it".

No one is immune. They even turn on each other, those monsters. Their logic is chasing a condition in which one of them owns everything and has the power to eliminate even the slightest whiff of opposition or competition.
**********
One of their "stories" to defuse any action against their predations is to push the myth that, "If you work hard you will be successful". Ha ha ha, very droll.

 

[Eshmiel]

Unfortunately it isn't the same for all of us.

I agree - much higher minimum wages so that we aren't subsidising low wage employers, rent controls and security of tenure so we aren't subsidising profiteering landlords, high council tax on second homes and empty houses - sufficient to pay for necessary council house building to make up for them.

+1 on them. But several other policy changes may be needed to stop the utter degradation of everything, though. The whole notion and definition of "property" for example. Perhaps making usury a sin once more? But the list is long, long.

 

[artie]

If you buy cheap tools your work is not as good.

nonsense
More expensive tools don't necessarily result in in better work.

 

[Eshmiel]

nonsense
More expensive tools don't necessarily result in in better work.

Not nonsense - the several factors that make "better work" do include better tools - fit for purpose as a minimum and perhaps "so enmeshed with a user skill that the tool becomes almost invisible" as a maximum.

In other words, it isn't an either-or matter (tool quality or skill) but both; plus other factors such as a well-formed intent, an understanding of the traditions (in skills, tool-construction. & maintenance) and a culture's "messages in forms and appearances", etc..

************

As an experiment, try riding a poorly made bicycle-shaped object from Argos or Amazon's cheapest lines then a high quality racing or touring bike around a ten mile hilly route with some difficult surfaces. If you're a skilled cyclist, you'll survive. If not, you may get gravel rash as you fall off the cheapie. Even if you survive, the times taken, pleasures experienced and dangers to others encountered along the route will all be markedly different.

We humans seem to enjoy making things black or white, positive or negative; right or wrong; this or that ...... simple binary yes/no answers to everything. But, as my granddaughter's favourite T-short declares, "I think you'll find its more complicated than that."

 

[Spectric]

More expensive tools don't necessarily result in in better work.

True and false, plus it depends upon the tool. Take power tools, there is an optimum price range where the tools will be good and give acceptable results, go below this price range and quality will fall off along with durability so for occasional DIY use you will get away with some tools in this range. Spend more and you start to spend a lot more for minimal returns but there will be exceptions often down to lack of competition, ie Lamello P2 or duo doweller where in a production shop the cost is easily justified but for many it would be a luxury or a nice to own.

A problem is knowing what to spend, if you need a tool for a small job then buying a cheap version initially seems a good idea until you buy it and find it is not that good so you buy a better blade and that makes no difference so bad buy, maybe hire would have been better.