Tenon Torture

[Chems]

Ive been making some large scale mortise and tenon joints, the mortise are no problem with my mortising maching. The tenons are a huge pain.

Having cut them roughly on the table saw and removing the waste I wasnt left with a very good edge, so I took them to the router to clean them up. Still not very good, I purchased a shoulder plane and that did a lot better but still not perfect. Im thinking what I really need to finish them off with a perfect straight edge is probably a belt sander, as using the plane Im getting a good bit of tear out on the ends. I really want perfect perfect joints as they are highly visible, these 8 joints will make or break the project. Advice please?

 

[dennis]

What about using a paring chisel,have you shortened them at all by trying to straighten them,I presume that it is the shoulders that you are trying to tidy up as I say if you have shortened them at all you will have to make sure that they end up identical and are still long enough to do the job.

Dennis

 

[catface]

hello Chems,
from your post its a bit unclear - are you having difficulty cutting the shoulder of the tenon straight and clean, or is it the cheeks of the tenon (which you cant see when the joint is assembled )?
If its the shoulders you ought to be able to get an excellent fit from a good shoulder plane . (There's an example of this fit in my last posting - about halfway down the article shows fitting a large (ie. 14cm deep shoulder) tenon to the matching part. See Iroko Bed in Design section of this forum, or
www.ukworkshop.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=23832.

I got a good fit to the shoulders but 2 things were key. First I'd been using an old stanley shoulder plane, and I could never get it to cut well for very long. Sometimes it ruined the work when the blade shifted (i know - sharpen it sooner !) This was changed for an expensive but extremely well working veritas shoulder plane. The difference in ease of cut and reliablilty of use was astounding.
The other thing was marking out. If you use a marking knife together with a square you can score across the wood where youwant the shoulder to be. Then you can plane from both sides of the shoulder - towards the middle of the joint to avoid splitting, and correct as you go along any high points. With a bit of care you can get an excellent fit this way, paring down until the final wood by the scored line just falls away. Then its dead straight.
I'm sure others have other ways just as good or better, this is just my way with big tenons.
Hope this helps, regards, Catface.

 

[Chems]

Yes I have shortened them but thats ok, the wood is a little to hard for end grain blade work I think which is why Im not getting the best out of the shoulder plane, its chestnut and Im mainly achieving tear out which is breaking my heart.

A slight diversion, but for those of you who dont use a table saw how many use the bandsaw to cut tenons??

 

[Chems]

Catface, missed your post must have been posting at the same time. That bed looks beautiful.

Now am I doing my tenons wrong because I cut all 4 sides with a rebate, is that an accepted method also or not?

 

[wizer]

What about a set of these:

http://www.axminster.co.uk/product.asp?pf_id=655618

 

[Chems]

Im afraid my table and router would let me down. Im considering buy a bandsaw, the good axminster one would most likely be my best route to a good square edge?

 

[wizer]

There is a learning curve to getting a good straight cut on a bandsaw. Assuming you have the right blade installed.

Tenon Saw?

 

[Tusses]

I am about to make some garage doors (wips soon) I am thinking to make the tennons by removing the waste with a router - free hand. maybe cut the sholders 1st with a circ saw ... we will see. will be doing them tomorrow or monday - will post pics

 

[Chems]

Depends on the quality of your kit, for me I bought my router first then my table saw and then realized quality kit is the key. So I think I will grab the Axminster Bandsaw with the cast iron table this month and that should able me to do some decent tenons. Also would I be able to cut this shape with a bandsaw with a thin blade:



Image Removed On Gills Advice.

 

[Frank Drew]

Chems,

My preferred method is to use the table saw's dado blades and either the miter guage or a sliding table, depending on how the saw is fitted out.

Getting the shoulders square and even with each other on both sides is critical, so the work must register precisely on the crosscut, either by having it butt against (then clear) a block on your rip fence, or with a stop on your crosscut fence.

It would be harder to get square, clean shoulders using a band saw; not impossible, just harder.

 

[Chems]

Hmm, my table saw is really poor thou, and cant accept dado blades either.

 

[9fingers]

Hmm, my table saw is really poor thou, and cant accept dado blades either.

Maybe it is time to do some work on the TS to sort out the problems. A dado blade is not essential my any means, you can use a crosscut/combi blade for the whole tenon.
Cut the shoulders first using Franks method and then nibble away the rest by repeated passes. Use a quality blade and if there is still chip out then put a piece of PARALLEL scrap between the mitre gauge and the workpiece.
All the time your TS remains 'poor' in your opinion, I don't think you will have confidence in it and that means you won't use it for lots of jobs like this one where it can really help.

Bob

 

[mailee]

You don't say how long the timber is you want to put tennons on but if it is less than 4' you can use the method I use. It is a variation on Steve Maskery's jig for the router which operates like the Leigh or Trend tennoning jig. attached to a bench it cuts the timber vertically but cuts perfect tennons with a 1/2" router and long cutter. If it is used in a clockwise motion around the timber (climb cutting) it will cut perfect tennons with no tearout at all. Only drawback with using this method is you are limited to around just over 2" tennon length, or the longest cutter ou can use. I find it works well for most of my tennons for gates and garage doors I have made in the past. HTH. :wink:

 

[Chems]

I think the major problem with my table saw now is the lack of a good blade. Its a 10inch saw with a 30mm bore, what sort of teeth count should I be looking at for a fine blade 50+?

Maliee, I see what your saying I will try that for the next ones but for the moment these ones need to be cleaned up as they are the only large sized stock I have left.

 

[9fingers]

Chems,

I get good results with a combi blade from Freud like

this one http://www.rutlands.co.uk/cgi-bin/psPro ... P30M===025
is the 250mm version 250 x 2.8 x 30 with 40 teeth.

The red teflon coating is very long lasting and seems to resist resin build up unlike uncoated blades.

More teeth would be normal choice for crosscutting but no good for ripping so if you are only likely to buy one blade for your saw. I'd advise this one.
It also has built in limiters and in a year or more of use it has not kicked me!

Another possibility is to talk to Cuttingsolutions over in the other place. He sells high quality blades and can advise/supply you for your specific application.

HTH

Bob

 

[Chems]

I have a good rip blade, its a fine blade Im after. Axminster had a really good deal on with a pack of three blades ranging up to 60T I think but are out of stock.

So 40T plus then is where I should be looking. On another table saw note, whats the advantages of a no clearance space blade hole thingy? Less blade wobble?

 

[9fingers]

Have a look at the freud LP40 series for dedicated crosscutting.

A zero clearance insert is there to help reduce tearout as it supports the workpiece immediately adjacent to the cut. You will need one of these.

If your saw is suffering from blade wobble with a flat blade then sort that out too as it won't help the results.

hth

Bob

 

[Racers]

Hi, Chems

Are plaining from both ends of the tennon to the middle? it you are plaining towards the end of the shoulder you will get splintering. Or is it the face of the tennon where you are getting tearout?


Pete

 

[Chems]

The face, I tried both ways but didnt get to far either.

I went back to the TS and got very good results. Ive sorted out the short lengths and now to go onto the longer ones. I think Ive made it harder for myself by doing all 4 sides rebated as it were. Watched the Woodworking Online podcast and he only does the 2 longer faces. Its all learning, but this bit really needs to be perfect or it will ruin the piece. Once Ive finished this little bit today I will put up a project thread so you can critic.