tenon or dovetail saw

[Jacob]

Which ones are difficult to use?

The ones whose teeth break off for starters.
NB junior hacksaws cut neat thin kerfs and their teeth don't break off!

 

[condeesteso]

I totally accept what you say Jacob - it's just me. I like thin kerf because [1] the mechanical efficiency (half the stock removed is half the waste, half the mechanical effort); [2] they demand precision - and that is my personal pursuit. I like them a lot on my bandsaw, my table saw and all my handsaws. I was amazed when I got my Two Lawyers Gents saw -it really is phenomenal for being super-thin, very fast, very true tracking. As you must know I love older tools, but there are some developments that do make a big impression, on me at least.
I will say though that the thin-kerf blades (machine or hand) will demand more care in use. It's a lot easier to knacker them, but for me that is what hones the skills. I'm happy just being me, and I work at getting tighter and finer in all I do (in the workshop that is... in the kitchen it's just a mess.)

HAPPY NEW YEAR Y'ALL

 

[Jacob]

Right. I don't think efficiency comes into it. Cross cutting teeth effectively cut 2 nicks and the wood fibre between falls out whatever the set.You just get bigger or smaller sawdust for the same effort. Rip cut is all cut, so in theory narrow is easier, but with a narrow kerf you are going to get more friction and less ability to steer and free up the blade.

It's easy to get drawn in to toolie mythology and allow common sense to evaporate. If you want to reduce the effort of sawing you go for fewer teeth, coarser set, thicker blades. A 4tpi rip saw would race down a board like a chain saw and finish before a thin kerf fine-tooth saw would get started! Similarly with crosscutting.

 

[Jacob]

I'm not at all fanatical about either Western or Japanese style saws...I just happen to have both and I have to say that you can take teeth off the latter if you are not using it carefully. That being said the Huntley Oak Japanese style saw...

....is a great development which overcomes zealous use on really hardwoods.

I actually cut this lignum vitae bowl in half with it.....

...I would say that is a fairly good test!

It still has all the teeth and they are all just as sharp as they were before this test.

It's horses for courses really....I love my old 100 year old Sorby backsaw too...but since I was more happy replacing the Huntley Oak than screwing up the Pedder-sharpened Sorby....I decided not to risk it! :mrgreen:

Jim

Marvellous what you can do with a flimsy jap saw but it'd be a lot quicker to cut your bowl in half with a conventional sharp 10tpi panel saw or similar, and the teeth never ever break unless you hit a nail.

 

[No skills]

Obviously a saw with missing teeth is difficult to use but I have only had the one saw break that wasnt misstreated.

Back to hard to use... japanese pull saws were the first handsaws I had ever used (maybe hacksaws first, but thats just being picky) and I got the hang of using them pretty quickly/easily.
My first foray into western saws wasnt so successfull and it took me a lot longer before I could cut in a reasonable fashion, perhaps I was tainted by the japanese saws use first but I didnt like them for a fair while.

Western are more durable and perhaps steerable in cut (imo) but I find it easier cutting a straight line with the japanese saws and dont have to correct as much.

JME

 

[xy mosian]

Saw kerfs. When cutting dovetails, if the saw kerf is wide enough to turn a coping saw blade within, surely this reduces the clean up work required.

Just a thought.
xy

 

[Modernist]

Saw kerfs. When cutting dovetails, if the saw kerf is wide enough to turn a coping saw blade within, surely this reduces the clean up work required.

Just a thought.
xy

I think it is a very valid thought!

 

[jimi43]

Marvellous what you can do with a flimsy jap saw but it'd be a lot quicker to cut your bowl in half with a conventional sharp 10tpi panel saw or similar, and the teeth never ever break unless you hit a nail.

Sometimes Jacob...I'm convinced you must have been a chippy on the Arizona..... :roll:

Jim

 

[Jacob]

Marvellous what you can do with a flimsy jap saw but it'd be a lot quicker to cut your bowl in half with a conventional sharp 10tpi panel saw or similar, and the teeth never ever break unless you hit a nail.

Sometimes Jacob...I'm convinced you must have been a chippy on the Arizona..... :roll:

Jim

What you mean the Arizona (still) sunk at Pearl harbour? A chippy with an anti jap chip? No, not at all, I like all things Japanese. Have been there (only a week in Tokyo and vicinity) and would love to go again.
This has nothing at all to do with a western fad for fiddling about with japanese saws!

 

[condeesteso]

Right. I don't think efficiency comes into it. Cross cutting teeth effectively cut 2 nicks and the wood fibre between falls out whatever the set.You just get bigger or smaller sawdust for the same effort. Rip cut is all cut, so in theory narrow is easier, but with a narrow kerf you are going to get more friction and less ability to steer and free up the blade.

It's easy to get drawn in to toolie mythology and allow common sense to evaporate. If you want to reduce the effort of sawing you go for fewer teeth, coarser set, thicker blades. A 4tpi rip saw would race down a board like a chain saw and finish before a thin kerf fine-tooth saw would get started! Similarly with crosscutting.

Mostly text book correct of course - but in actual practice, and tpi for tpi, the fine kerf rip will cut faster with less effort than the coarse one. And the point re narrow kerf and friction is wrong, both technically and in practice.

 

[Jacob]

Right. I don't think efficiency comes into it. Cross cutting teeth effectively cut 2 nicks and the wood fibre between falls out whatever the set.You just get bigger or smaller sawdust for the same effort. Rip cut is all cut, so in theory narrow is easier, but with a narrow kerf you are going to get more friction and less ability to steer and free up the blade.

It's easy to get drawn in to toolie mythology and allow common sense to evaporate. If you want to reduce the effort of sawing you go for fewer teeth, coarser set, thicker blades. A 4tpi rip saw would race down a board like a chain saw and finish before a thin kerf fine-tooth saw would get started! Similarly with crosscutting.

Mostly text book correct of course - but in actual practice, and tpi for tpi, the fine kerf rip will cut faster with less effort than the coarse one. And the point re narrow kerf and friction is wrong, both technically and in practice.

I put a £100 on me being faster than you with a rip saw compared to a fine tooth fine kerf japanese (or any other nationality) saw, if I was a betting man!. Basically you are wrong, for fairly obvious reasons I would have thought.

 

[condeesteso]

Jacob - you are the master of the last word of course, and you can have it. But if you re-read your post quoted above, and my response, it may be useful.

 

[Jacob]

Jacob - you are the master of the last word of course, and you can have it. But if you re-read your post quoted above, and my response, it may be useful.

Er, oh yes tpi for tpi? You are still wrong though. Zero set will bind and be inefficient, probably impossible. As you increase the set there will be an optimum width for efficiency - depending on sharpness, skill etc. We have James-1986s description of not enough set. post644874.html#p644874
Too fine - no good.

 

[condeesteso]

Jacob - are you confusing fine kerf with no set? Back to your books mate :wink:

 

[Jacob]

Jacob - are you confusing fine kerf with no set?

Quite possibly. Less set means finer kerf after all. As does thinner blade. Thin blade and fine set basically means careful slow sawing, and if the set is too fine then the effort required may be too much for the thin blade. Thin blade also means smaller teeth (higher tpi, not enough strength for larger teeth) which in turn increases the cutting effort
As with most things , there may be a happy medium, but in general, thick blade, big teeth, wide set, is faster and less effort than the opposite, but may produce a coarser cut.

 

[Racers]

Hi, Jacob

So doing more work with a wider saw with bigger teeth uses less effort?

Don't think so, but I will guess you will just bang on as usual.


“It is better to keep your mouth shut and appear stupid than to open it and remove all doubt.”
Mark Twain


Pete

 

[Jacob]

Hi, Jacob

So doing more work with a wider saw with bigger teeth uses less effort?
....


Pete

True in general yes. That's why thin saws with small teeth are only used for fine work, and not for cutting down trees etc. Why am I having to explain this?
There is a simple reason - a fine tooth saw makes more cuts, one tooth after another, for a given amount of movement. 32 tpi is 32 little cuts per inch of movement.
This produces finer sawdust, which demonstrates this i.e.the waste from the kerf has been cut into smaller pieces. This takes longer and more effort. It would do.
It's obvious. Just try a fine tooth and a coarse tooth saw for yourself on the same bit of wood using the same amount of effort.
Or ask yourself why on earth anyone would use a coarse tooth saw ever, if it's more work.

 

[Racers]

Mmmm

You still don't get it do you.

Pete

 

[condeesteso]

I was intending to leave this well alone, but it's a flame and I'm a moth.
Jacob firmly believes in something but exactly what becomes unclear, as his points keep shifting and when scrutinised become weak.
I'm guessing Jacob believes in big western saws with a fairly coarse pitch, and a fair amount of set. But there are false trails along the way - efficiency for example. Efficiency is ratio of output over input and all else being equal thin kerf is more efficient. A thin blade stock can have plenty of set, loads of clearance, no significant friction. So can a thicker one of course.
What is really missing here is scale - if I make precision boxes I know what I need to cut the joints. If you Jacob make great big frames you know what you need.
There is no right or wrong, and I find it irritating when an opinion is given [a] stated as if it were a fact and without context (scale, application, whatever.)

(yet more irritation on the way no doubt )

 

[nanowire]

I was intending to leave this well alone, but it's a flame and I'm a moth.
Jacob firmly believes in something but exactly what becomes unclear, as his points keep shifting and when scrutinised become weak.
I'm guessing Jacob believes in big western saws with a fairly coarse pitch, and a fair amount of set. But there are false trails along the way - efficiency for example. Efficiency is ratio of output over input and all else being equal thin kerf is more efficient. A thin blade stock can have plenty of set, loads of clearance, no significant friction. So can a thicker one of course.
What is really missing here is scale - if I make precision boxes I know what I need to cut the joints. If you Jacob make great big frames you know what you need.
There is no right or wrong, and I find it irritating when an opinion is given [a] stated as if it were a fact and without context (scale, application, whatever.)

(yet more irritation on the way no doubt )

One have to define on what criteria the efficiency is calculated; waste, power, torque or time. What you write is true under the given conditions i.e. all else being equal, like in comparison between a thin kerf and a "normal" circular saw blade of the same tpi, where the thin kerf needs less torque and power from the saw and gives less waste.
But normally, with handsaws, one compares saws with tpi that correlates with thickness. Then the consideration becomes time versus precision (and waste) where the thick, low tpi wins on time but looses on waste and precision against the thin, high tpi one. I suppose you all agree on that?