tenon or dovetail saw

[No skills]

Having just looked at the video linked, seems like a fairly harmless bit of fun (imo) - surely only the youngest of wood workers would see this and think that this is the way things are done?

There are the odd positive to be had though, young folk might be attracted to try wood working as a result of little stunts like that. I believe as a hobby (at least) wood working lacks interest from most young folk.

But perhaps that wasnt the point of the post, (?) apologies if not.

And merry xmas!

:ho2

 

[bobbybirds]

Jacob

No one forces you to read the threads, so why not just stick to woodworking and leave up in peace to polish our chisels.

We would do, except you all behave as though you have discovered the one true way - believe me you most definitely haven't!

Again kind sir... Pot... Kettle... Black...

I fear that if you ever unclenched your insides may fall out. So sad someone can become so jaded and bitter they must try to make others who disagree feel less worthy...

 

[GazPal]

One drawback with recommending high end tools after virtually every enquiry is that a false impression can be made in terms of useable tools for novice/beginner/aspiring woodworkers. Yes, it's sound advice to buy the best possible tools for the job, but not if the initial investment outweighs justifiable expense where e.g. someone wishes to make a gift box for a loved one, or hang a couple of doors. It'd potentially prove cheaper for the enthusiast to employ someone else to do the work or buy a pre-made item and begs the question regarding practical start up tooling costs.

Typically enthused over
£48 per LN chisel (Basic set of 4 bevel edged or a single)
£108 per LN dovetail saw
£196 per LN rip/crosscut saw
£281 per LN #5 jack plane/£260 per LN #4 smoothing plane (Without setting foot on the bevel up or bevel down bandwagon)
£159 per Veritas standard block plane

One fell swoop investing in a chisel, 2 saws, plus bench and block plane suited to box work equals a potentially recommended £782 worth of spending before timber, work bench, finishing materials, sharpening kit, etc., have even entered the equation. By all means buy what your pocket book can afford and make educated decisions, but there's a vast difference between what a professional/keen amateur can justify spending and what is realistically justifiable for a casual entry into the world of woodworking.

A starter woodworking kit (Before considering areas of speciality) IMHO should not exceed affordable levels for the participant and such levels of investment are best left until a degree of experience has been gained and the enthusiast is able to make more informed personal decisions regarding tooling. Professional quality tools don't necessarily cost as much and a basic kit can be had for less than £100.

 

[nanowire]

One drawback with recommending high end tools after virtually every enquiry is that a false impression can be made in terms of useable tools for novice/beginner/aspiring woodworkers. Yes, it's sound advice to buy the best possible tools for the job, but not if the initial investment outweighs justifiable expense where e.g. someone wishes to make a gift box for a loved one, or hang a couple of doors. It'd potentially prove cheaper for the enthusiast to employ someone else to do the work or buy a pre-made item and begs the question regarding practical start up tooling costs.

Typically enthused over
£48 per LN chisel (Basic set of 4 bevel edged or a single)
£108 per LN dovetail saw
£196 per LN rip/crosscut saw
£281 per LN #5 jack plane/£260 per LN #4 smoothing plane (Without setting foot on the bevel up or bevel down bandwagon)
£159 per Veritas standard block plane

One fell swoop investing in a chisel, 2 saws, plus bench and block plane suited to box work equals a potentially recommended £782 worth of spending before timber, work bench, finishing materials, sharpening kit, etc., have even entered the equation. By all means buy what your pocket book can afford and make educated decisions, but there's a vast difference between what a professional/keen amateur can justify spending and what is realistically justifiable for a casual entry into the world of woodworking.

A starter woodworking kit (Before considering areas of speciality) IMHO should not exceed affordable levels for the participant and such levels of investment are best left until a degree of experience has been gained and the enthusiast is able to make more informed personal decisions regarding tooling. Professional quality tools don't necessarily cost as much and a basic kit can be had for less than £100.

Good, balanced post. I.e. it's nothing wrong with high quality, expensive hand tools but it is way to easy for the novice (like me) to get the impression that they are must haves. There is no shortage of advices regarding the high end side of tools but earnest reports of OK+ ones are scarcer...

 

[Aled Dafis]

This is where we must thank the likes of Matthew at Workshop Heaven for working with the manufacturers to offer us a superb blend of quality and more affordable prices. To me, his Quangsheng planes and Narex chisels offer the best bang for your buck available at the moment. I'm afraid that a beginners set up will still not creep nder the £100 mark, but will be a dammed sight closer than the LN equivalents.

 

[Aled Dafis]

...
Typically enthused over
£48 per LN chisel (Basic set of 4 bevel edged or a single)
£108 per LN dovetail saw
£196 per LN rip/crosscut saw
£281 per LN #5 jack plane/£260 per LN #4 smoothing plane (Without setting foot on the bevel up or bevel down bandwagon)
£159 per Veritas standard block plane

One fell swoop investing in a chisel, 2 saws, plus bench and block plane suited to box work equals a potentially recommended £782 worth of spending before timber, work bench, finishing materials, sharpening kit, etc., have even entered the equation. By all means buy what your pocket book can afford and make educated decisions, but there's a vast difference between what a professional/keen amateur can justify spending and what is realistically justifiable for a casual entry into the world of woodworking.

A starter woodworking kit (Before considering areas of speciality) IMHO should not exceed affordable levels for the participant and such levels of investment are best left until a degree of experience has been gained and the enthusiast is able to make more informed personal decisions regarding tooling. Professional quality tools don't necessarily cost as much and a basic kit can be had for less than £100.

I've just been on Matthew's site for a quick comparison and what I would advise a dedicated beginner to go for.

Narex 8116 Chisels - set of 6 £66.50
Quangsheng #5 - £109.50
Gyokucho 240mm Kataba (a good all round saw for starters) - £32

That makes a grand total of £208 for a basic staters kit which could of course be added to as you progress.

Cheers
Aled

 

[Jacob]

I'd go for a Spear & Jackson tenon saw typically about £10 on ebay, any old chisels £2ish each (or that Axminster set at £11) and a 4 or 5 on ebay again from £10 to £20.
Say £50 max for some very good tools. They have never been cheaper but presumably it won't last forever.

PS I'd avoid "sets". They are just a tool sellers way of making you buy more than you need.

 

[Alf]

"Typically enthused over"? You're kidding right? We're not allowed to enthuse over tools any more without the bah-humbuggers removing any possible iota of enjoyment from the experience until they've "won". :roll:

Because the alternatives weren't there when I started, I've had considerable experience in getting "cheap" old tools in working order. It's a great way to learn about tool construction, metal-working and old tools, but it's a really lousy way to be a woodworker. For a beginner the learning curve is steep. Very steep. You're not just learning how to sharpen and what sharp really is, but how to grind an initial bevel (which even some experienced woodworkers still regard as something to be avoided, the wusses...). Not just a matter of learning how to set the frog, but finding out if you've actually got a frog that's still fit for purpose; not just learning what a cap iron is, but maybe painfully finding out that someone swapped yours at some point and it won't work in that plane. Meanwhile, you're losing more and more confidence because it must be you, right? Bad workman blames his tools, and all that jazz. Yeah, if you've got a mentor on your doorstep to help you, then okay, that route has much merit. But on your own? For my money (and from my experience), not if you're in it for the working of wood.

 

[Jacob]

....For a beginner the learning curve is steep. Very steep.

Not that steep. Take saws to saw doctors for starters. Any fool can sharpen a chisel or a plane on a double sided oil stone - the difficulty has been highly exaggerated in recent years!
If you're in it for the working of wood you've got to get to grips with these things anyway.

 

[James C]

You don't have to be a mechanic to enjoy driving. I am enjoying the learning curve of overhauling tools and equipment before beginning woodwork as I find it helps me understand everything more but some won't want to do so.

 

[robcosman]

"Typically enthused over"? You're kidding right? We're not allowed to enthuse over tools any more without the bah-humbuggers removing any possible iota of enjoyment from the experience until they've "won". :roll:

Because the alternatives weren't there when I started, I've had considerable experience in getting "cheap" old tools in working order. It's a great way to learn about tool construction, metal-working and old tools, but it's a really lousy way to be a woodworker. For a beginner the learning curve is steep. Very steep. You're not just learning how to sharpen and what sharp really is, but how to grind an initial bevel (which even some experienced woodworkers still regard as something to be avoided, the wusses...). Not just a matter of learning how to set the frog, but finding out if you've actually got a frog that's still fit for purpose; not just learning what a cap iron is, but maybe painfully finding out that someone swapped yours at some point and it won't work in that plane. Meanwhile, you're losing more and more confidence because it must be you, right? Bad workman blames his tools, and all that jazz. Yeah, if you've got a mentor on your doorstep to help you, then okay, that route has much merit. But on your own? For my money (and from my experience), not if you're in it for the working of wood.

ALF, BEST POST ON THIS THREAD, WELL SAID!
ROB

 

[Aled Dafis]

"Typically enthused over"? You're kidding right? We're not allowed to enthuse over tools any more without the bah-humbuggers removing any possible iota of enjoyment from the experience until they've "won". :roll:

Because the alternatives weren't there when I started, I've had considerable experience in getting "cheap" old tools in working order. It's a great way to learn about tool construction, metal-working and old tools, but it's a really lousy way to be a woodworker. For a beginner the learning curve is steep. Very steep. You're not just learning how to sharpen and what sharp really is, but how to grind an initial bevel (which even some experienced woodworkers still regard as something to be avoided, the wusses...). Not just a matter of learning how to set the frog, but finding out if you've actually got a frog that's still fit for purpose; not just learning what a cap iron is, but maybe painfully finding out that someone swapped yours at some point and it won't work in that plane. Meanwhile, you're losing more and more confidence because it must be you, right? Bad workman blames his tools, and all that jazz. Yeah, if you've got a mentor on your doorstep to help you, then okay, that route has much merit. But on your own? For my money (and from my experience), not if you're in it for the working of wood.

ALF, BEST POST ON THIS THREAD, WELL SAID!
ROB

Well Said Alf!! (and Rob) We've all been through the same process, and it isn't until you try a properly made/tuned plane/chisel/saw that you realise what can be achieved. This process is just becoming a little cheaper now, thanks to the offerings available at Workshopheaven and the likes.

Chers
Aled

 

[Jacob]

............ Yeah, if you've got a mentor on your doorstep to help you, then okay, that route has much merit. But on your own? For my money (and from my experience), not if you're in it for the working of wood.

Oh dear what a pessimist!
OK if you live on a desert island and the only connection to the outside world is a tool ordering facility of some sort :shock: , then you might want them to be spot on. That is, if you were a beginner, lacking in confidence, tending to give up easily, slightly feeble minded etc etc.
But any practical person is going to have a crack, and will get there one way or another.
Anyway we are awash with info, books, mags, and the internet, not to mention other people, woodwork classes and so on. Too much information, too many would-be mentors.

An idle thought; the notion that sharpening is inherently difficult - I wonder how and when that came to be so widespread. Could it be the net and a "viral" spread of misinformation? Everybody used to manage in the old days, schoolkids, amateurs etc. Not very well at first perhaps, but unless you have a go you won't get any better!

Just sharpened my £8 S&J tenon saw. It is excellent. Paid too much though, they go for a lot less quite often.

 

[Jacob]

.......We've all been through the same process, and it isn't until you try a properly made/tuned plane/chisel/saw that you realise what can be achieved.

True if you give up early, but most of us get there under our own steam with some very indifferent bits of kit!

This process is just becoming a little cheaper now, thanks to the offerings available at Workshopheaven and the likes.....

:lol: Is that a joke? It's never been more expensive to get started up - if you believe this sort of thing!

PS I could have missed it but I could not find a trad double sided oilstone in the Axi or WH catalogues. Hmm.

 

[andy king]

:lol: Is that a joke? It's never been more expensive to get started up - if you believe this sort of thing!

I'd disagree with that, and by an earlier posting in the chisels thread, the evidence is there. You're own comments on that pretty well confirming so.
I commented on your posting about the price then to the price now that you had determined (notably edited after i posted a couple of comments...)
BUT... When I was learning in 1977 and beyond, there was not the budget, pound shop/diy stuff available that there is now, nor was there the chance of picking up bargains at the car boot - old chisels, planes and so forth.
If you wanted to do woodwork, you had to pay decent money to do so.
There were cheaper versions available, S&J did cheaper saws within their range, Stanley, Marples etc likewise, and also cheaper ranges from the likes of Footprint but the price still relatively high.
The woodworking trade was driven by handtools then, no such luxury of powertools, (hire shops, and some bigger companies yes, but the general trade, hobby or DIYer, not so only a Yankee screwdriver the nearest you would come to owning a tool to speed up your work.
The cost of tools then are as costly as now for the ones the trade would go for, so a set of chisles at about £40, saws at £20 each and so forth are high equivelents now.
I know... I bought mine back then and it took me a long while to amount that basic set on an apprentice wage of £16 a week.
I think that was around 1/4 the tradesman wage as I recall, so around £65-70 for the tradesman. A big shell out for anyone back then before the influx of the chinese market and powertool evolution.
OK, you can get those expensive tools now for pennies or a few pounds if you look around, but to say that it costs more now isn't correct.
A great example Jacob would be your own kit of tools you were given at the end of your TOP's course.
As I recall, that was a basic set of decent quality tools with a value of around £200, and all rated as 'trade' items, no cheap budget stuff within, it was designed for you to go out on site and earn a living.
Esentially 2-3 weeks wages for any tradesman to buy, so by todays prices/cost of living - how much to do the same?
To get hold of the old tools available now, you had to be in the right place at the right time when one of the old boys was retiring and selling off his kit, but with the woodworking game still very much hand tool driven, those prices were still quite high, much the same as selling on a LN tool now for instance.
I'd say back then, (and not just when i was learning, but anywhere before the cheap Far East stuff and powertools took over) anyone looking to do woodwork would be paying more for the stuff they needed compared to now.
I often wonder, had powertools never been invented and we had to do our work by hand, would we be able to pick up the old woodworking tools we can now for peanuts if everyone was still reliant on them?

 

[Jacob]

It's not working for this chap post644562.html#p644562
Shouldn't laugh but people do have ridiculously high expectations of these tools even though they are quite ordinary (except for the finish and the price. :shock
If he'd bought a straight forwards old brit saw I expect he would just have taken it to a saw doctor or set about it himself.

 

[Alf]

....For a beginner the learning curve is steep. Very steep.

Not that steep.

Did you start from scratch, Jacob? In a shed with no-one but yourself to show you how to proceed? No, you went on a course. You had someone to guide you. Start again, from scratch, with no-one to help you but what you read (and who you read is entirely down to who you choose to read, because no-one's guiding you there either) Now tell me the learning curve isn't steep. You have to really, really love woodworking to be female and with no tools beyond a desk and a scalpel to get where I have. Try it in another life sometime. I don't tell you how to make sash windows, and in return you'll damn well do me the courtesy of knowing exactly how hard it is to learn how to work wood when you start with absolutely nothing to go on.

 

[Jacob]

....For a beginner the learning curve is steep. Very steep.

Not that steep.

Did you start from scratch, Jacob? In a shed with no-one but yourself to show you how to proceed? No, you went on a course. You had someone to guide you. Start again, from scratch, with no-one to help you but what you read (and who you read is entirely down to who you choose to read, because no-one's guiding you there either) Now tell me the learning curve isn't steep. You have to really, really love woodworking to be female and with no tools beyond a desk and a scalpel to get where I have. Try it in another life sometime. I don't tell you how to make sash windows, and in return you'll damn well do me the courtesy of knowing exactly how hard it is to learn how to work wood when you start with absolutely nothing to go on.

I didn't start with a course. I did a bit at school which was rapidly forgotten, then started (much later) with no-one to help but what I read - mostly mags. I did a course much much later, all hand tool work.
But at no time was the learning curve the slightest bit assisted by buying premium tools, as distinct from any old tools as available. Even if they were ready to use, honed, tuned, fettled, flattened, polished, I would have blunted them fairly quickly, as would anybody who used them.
The premium tool thing is really a side line and not that relevant to any individual's woodworking development. Mainly because the basic tools are simple and there can never be that much difference between one simple tool and another.
There is no significant difference between James-1986s £140 LN tenon saw referred to above, and my £8 ebay S&J - except mine works and his doesn't. If both were sharpened and set identically they would work identically.

 

[andy king]

There is no significant difference between James-1986s £140 LN tenon saw referred to above, and my £8 ebay S&J - except mine works and his doesn't. If both were sharpened and set identically they would work identically.

No, maybe no significant difference, but bear in mind that Awkwood commented on prices from an early 80's tool catalogue on the chisels thread:

Compare this to other top quality tools of the time eg. a 12" nonpareil tenon saw £30.41

so by today's prices, that Nonpariel would be equal or more than the Lie Nielsen.
Likewise, the £8 S&J you bought would be maybe slightly cheaper back then judging by the handle style, but even so, in it's day, considerably more than the £8 you paid, and also an expensive purchase back then. I'd guess at least £20, so what would that be in today's terms?
Saying it can be picked up cheaper now isn't really valid, and dismissing someone for making a purchase of the current top end stuff equally unfair.
The comments i made earlier ring true - there was little chance to pick up cheap tools back then, it was good quality at a high price compared to weekly earnings, and those that bought them, tended to hold on to them or sell them to others at a high secondhand value, more often than not, upon retirement.
The way we woodwork now has moved the goalposts in my opinion, and it means that these older tools are no longer cherished or valued like they used to be, and that's driven the prices down to where they are now generally easily available tools.
Saying cheap secondhand ebay stuff is better is fine, but remember, these were never cheap when originally available, they were top end tools. I doubt the owners got slated for buying them back then?
Essentially, your £8 ebay saw was a relatively high priced saw in its day, much the same as the LN now.

 

[Jacob]

.......
Saying cheap secondhand ebay stuff is better is fine, but remember, these were never cheap when originally available, they were top end tools. I doubt the owners got slated for buying them back then?

I don't slate the owners for buying posh tools, if buyers want to treat themselves that's OK obviously. But the premium tools are very oversold and over promoted IMHO and the claims made on their behalf are somewhat exaggerated.

Essentially, your £8 ebay saw was a relatively high priced saw in its day, much the same as the LN now.

Not sure quite how the prices compare but I agree the S&J was a goodun in it's day (and still is). But they are dirt cheap now and exceedingly good value, as are planes and other tools of 50 years ago. More of these older tools are being recognised as good value - they used to get totally dismissed.