Table saw advice?

[steve355]

Evening

Hoping for some advice on table sawing.

My table saw was the second machine tool I bought for my workshop. The first was an Evolution mitre saw, which was ok (died eventually) but I could tell had nothing like the accuracy or robustness I thought I’d need in a table saw, so wanting something robust but not to part with too much cash, I got a vintage Tyzack saw. Very heavy, cast iron everything etc. Some nice features such as micro-adjustment etc.

But it’s (i guess) 80 yrs old and has its challenges.

1) The fence isn’t long enough, so I bolted a piece of plywood to it. Unfortunately it then has a long lever arm and so can easily wobble. This can be solved by clamping the far end of the fence to the table. Which works - but is a right pain as it has to be unclamped and reclamped every time I adjust the fence. Question - is there a better solution to this?

2) Finish. I need a really clean finish on the cuts, but I get some saw marks. I’ve tried a rip blade and a fine toothed blade (also vintage!) but it isn’t good enough. Is there a blade I can get or a technique I can use to get a great finish.

3) Blade height locking - the blade height adjuster unhelpfully turns itself anti clockwise during a cut and lowers the blade. If I carefully wind out the backlash this reduces but again, it’s a pain because I really don’t want to be staring at the blade height wheel while cutting.

4) Vibration. Not sure what can be done about that.

Advice much appreciated. I need something really accurate, perhaps, sadly, it’s time to move on from it.

Steve

 

[Bingy man]

I’m for sure no expert on these issues but the blade height changing during use and as a result you’re distracted during a cut is I think an accident waiting to happen. All your issues will be resolved with a new or second hand more modern machine . Just my opinion of course as there are many many more experienced members that can advise you further .

 

[steve355]

I’m for sure no expert on these issues but the blade height changing during use and as a result you’re distracted during a cut is I think an accident waiting to happen. All your issues will be resolved with a new or second hand more modern machine . Just my opinion of course as there are many many more experienced members that can advise you further .

I think actually I have or can fix that - I had it apart this evening and it’s a result of play in the rod that raises and lowers the trunnion mechanism. What it doesn’t have though is a lock on that mechanism like some newer machines.

One thing it does have is a thumb screw micro-adjust, which is invaluable for the precision cuts I need to make. Looking at the selection at Axminster, few seem to have this.

The wobbly fence seems to be down to a lack of rigidity in the guide rail. Again, I can probably fix this, and also replace the plywood second fence with a piece of aluminium box section.

Unfortunately I simply don’t have a couple of grand right now to upgrade to something great. Looking at the Axminster bottom of the range saw, it looks poor quality compared to mine. Mines just a bit old and needs some TLC. but if I could find the right saw for the right price I’d probably go for it. The Proxxon one looked good until I realised it has a 2cm depth of cut!

 

[Jameshow]

It does should like a bearing issue. Causing re blade to vibrate and thus mark the wood and also allow the blade to fall.

I could be an Arbor bearing so the blade is loose or it could be a motor issue (if they are separate) New bearings are probably available but it's whether you have the inclination to delve further .....

 

[Bingy man]

I think actually I have or can fix that - I had it apart this evening and it’s a result of play in the rod that raises and lowers the trunnion mechanism. What it doesn’t have though is a lock on that mechanism like some newer machines.

One thing it does have is a thumb screw micro-adjust, which is invaluable for the precision cuts I need to make. Looking at the selection at Axminster, few seem to have this.

The wobbly fence seems to be down to a lack of rigidity in the guide rail. Again, I can probably fix this, and also replace the plywood second fence with a piece of aluminium box section.

Unfortunately I simply don’t have a couple of grand right now to upgrade to something great. Looking at the Axminster bottom of the range saw, it looks poor quality compared to mine. Mines just a bit old and needs some TLC. but if I could find the right saw for the right price I’d probably go for it. The Proxxon one looked good until I realised it has a 2cm depth of cut!

Yes - it’s a real shame that modern day machines can’t be made to the same level of quality and precision as their older counterparts with the safety features of the modern world unless you part with eye watering sums of money

 

[Cabinetman]

You are probably going to think I’m wrong but here goes. The fence shouldn’t go all the way through like that, it is potentially dangerous and could cause a kickback. (You’re not American are you as they all have saw fences like yours) the fence does nothing in relation to the cutting after the teeth have cut (rather obviously) and the hse rules state that the fence should stop somewhere after the teeth and before the centre of the blade, it’s actually a bit more involved but that’s about it.
Ian

 

[steve355]

You are probably going to think I’m wrong but here goes. The fence shouldn’t go all the way through like that, it is potentially dangerous and could cause a kickback. (You’re not American are you as they all have saw fences like yours) the fence does nothing in relation to the cutting after the teeth have cut (rather obviously) and the hse rules state that the fence should stop somewhere after the teeth and before the centre of the blade, it’s actually a bit more involved but that’s about it.
Ian

That’s really interesting because that’s how it is. I’ll take a picture tomorrow.

I added the “extension” because I’m using it for profiling the soles of moulding planes. I need to run it absolutely cleanly over the blade, there is literally no margin for error, so it needs to run along the fence perfectly. I was finding, with these 10 inch long pieces of wood, that it was impossible to keep the last couple of inches perfectly straight. It would veer off very slightly to the right - there wasn’t enough support from the fence. And to be honest, it worked.

Many of these cuts are partial and very shallow. Like any plane sole, they have a tolerance of a few thousands of an inch. Basically I need to be able to accurately create two similar plane soles that have 15 thou (1/64”) difference between them. TBH it’s engineering as much as woodworking, Amazingly, I’ve been doing it and succeeding with a plain old rabbet plane. But it’s a slow and error prone process. So I am trying to do some (the deeper rebates) with my table saw.

 

[Cabinetman]

Well it is a different result to what most people expect and get I suppose, dare I? And I do mean dare, are you using 2 push sticks? With correct use the Wood shouldn’t move to the right after the fence ends.
Ian

 

[Yojevol]

Seems to me you're using the wrong machine..Don't you get a stepped profile after a number of passes over the saw blade? Do you live with that or do you go on to clean it up to a smooth profile?
A router table with round ended cutters might be a better solution but still a tedious process if a number of cuts are required. I've used this method on a larger scale using a spindle moulder to create concave curves on furniture parts, but it does still leave minor ridges which have to be sanded off.
The ultimate solution if you want to go into quantity production is to use a spindle moulder and grind cutters to your specific profile requirements.
Brian

 

[NickDReed]

What @Cabinetman advises is absolutely correct. I have a Fox version of the Record Power tspp250, this comes with a full length fence, but you can slide the high/low profile attachment to stop just after the first teeth to reduce the risk of kick back.

If your having issues with the locking mechanism on the front of the fence Steve Maskery recently released a new video on YouTube showing how he made his own fence that looked very robust, might be of use to you.

 

[steve355]

Seems to me you're using the wrong machine..Don't you get a stepped profile after a number of passes over the saw blade? Do you live with that or do you go on to clean it up to a smooth profile?
A router table with round ended cutters might be a better solution but still a tedious process if a number of cuts are required. I've used this method on a larger scale using a spindle moulder to create concave curves on furniture parts, but it does still leave minor ridges which have to be sanded off.
The ultimate solution if you want to go into quantity production is to use a spindle moulder and grind cutters to your specific profile requirements.
Brian

See diagram, two “mating” plane profiles. I’m doing the top (upside down) one. I want to make a right angle “Z” cut at 20 degrees offset - see the red arrows. Then the detailed part of the moulding gets put on by hand tools.

Lots of moulding plane soles start with this (or similar) Z profiles. My idea is that I can make up some metal “gauge strips” at the required lengths to set the fence. Then I can easily run off basic “sprung” plane soles, as these are called, and apply different mouldings to them as needed.

That’s all I’m trying to do - and a table saw should be the right tool. But it has to be deadly accurate and the cut needs to be finish quality, or close.

 

[Adam W.]

Call me Mr Cautious, but that thing looks like an accident waiting to happen.

 

[steve355]

Call me Mr Cautious, but that thing looks like an accident waiting to happen.

I’m healthily scared to death of the thing. I use it in full body armour.

Any blade recommendations anybody?

 

[Jacob]

You need a better saw.
While you are at it might as well make it a combi as you then get a heavy machine for stability and cleaner cut, a larger table, a sliding table for complicated cuts (you clamp things to the table, at funny angles if required, and float it past the blade hands off) plus the other functions of a combi.
Sheer mass aids precision and also quieter running. Bigger motor helps too - you need less force in feeding things through.
Re your 10" lengths - profile longer lengths first and only then cut to 10"?
"Body armour" less important than push sticks - your hands are the most vulnerable bits of your body. Even more so with short and complicated workpieces.

 

[steve355]

I’d love a new saw but I haven’t got any money for a better saw. And I haven’t got any space for a bigger saw. But recommendations are welcome in case I win the lottery (which I don’t play). I like the idea of the sliding table though.

It is heavy cast iron. It’s generally very well made. It’s just old. It has a 1.5hp motor which should be fine for the light cuts I’m doing.

I’ve fixed the drive belt tensioner this morning - the drive belt wasn’t as tight as necessary at some blade heights, which was causing vibration and contributing to the blade height dropping. I need to get some springs for it which will dampen vibration yet further.

Interestingly, it runs very smoothly with the table off. Much of the vibration seems to be related to the table. I reckon just greasing the table tilt mechanism may make a big difference.

I have it on a home made wooden stand. It’s not ideal, a couple of bags of sand would probably help. I could potentially weld up an angle iron stand.

The reason the fence isn’t totally stable is that the steel fence guide rail is flexing very slightly. No idea if it’s always done this but if I add another set screw to stabilise the guide rail that should fix it.

Sorting it out isn’t beyond the wit of man - I’ve refurbished some pretty complex machines in my time and this is comparatively very simple.

Any blade recommendations?

 

[niall Y]

That looks suspiciously like an old 'Royal' saw bench. I have one languishing in the corner of my workshop, which I use as a stand for my bandsaw. I believe that at one time it was sold under both the Tysack and Parry labels.

Mine is the slightly later, floor standing model, though the top was fabricated from sheet steel rather than cast. There was an additional refinement to the fence to stop it moving, which was a threaded rod that passed along the inside of the fence and engaged with a rectangular section of chromed steel at the back . This gripped the back of the saw table when a knurled knob was turned at the front of the fence. This didn't cure the problem entirely as I believe most of the problem in this regard stems from the flimsy chromed bar that the fence runs along..

I had to change the bearings at some stage, and remember being really surprised that they fitted inside what appeared to be a section of steel gas barrel.
There wasn't a sliding table that went with this particular saw, though I did manage to adapt a sliding table from an Elektra Beckum site saw, which worked well enough, for a while.

Niall

 

[Jacob]

I’d love a new saw but I haven’t got any money for a better saw. And I haven’t got any space for a bigger saw. But recommendations are welcome in case I win the lottery (which I don’t play). I like the idea of the sliding table though.
.....

Maybe look at a better base. Heavier stuff with a bigger footprint at least same spread as the table itself, and perhaps add weights.

 

[steve355]

let’s imagine that I did get a new one, budget around £1000. Requirements - accurate, compact, flexible.

What would people recommend?

 

[Adam W.]

Does your best half know what you are up to?

 

[steve355]

Does your best half know what you are up to?

Not really but if a large shiny new table saw turned up she would probably notice