T&G with Record 50 Combination Plane

[Anonymous]

Now when was I going to update the OMG thread? ... :lol:

Take care, Mike

OMG ! :roll: :lol: worked out any clues to add yet ?

 

[Wylie2112]

If you want to simply glue the pieces together for a seamless joint, why bother using tongue and groove at all? Could it be for better alignment or more glue surface? Seems a lot of work for little gain(?)

Well, a couple of reasons, really. One is that I'm inexperienced enough to not know any better or another way of doing it. Simply glueing together a flat joint didn't seem like it would be secure enough.

The other reason, though, is just to learn how to do it. Part of the reason for taking up the hobby is to learn the traditional skill. I think there's something to using your hands and your own power and I just fancy giving it a go. What looked pretty simple to start is clearly full of learning opportunities!!

Shawn

 

[Anonymous]

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[Wylie2112]

I was also thinking that T&G helps prevent warping and better transfer of stress between the boards. Is that the case or no?

I did the obvious and put the chip deflector in BEFORE putting the tongue cutter in place and, guess what? It works a treat!! Completed my first tongue in just a few minutes after that. Now on to the groove!

Thanks again for the input, guys. Man there is a lot to learn! I feel like I'm just starting out on a learning path that will take a lifetime and not ever really stop.

Shawn

 

[MikeW]

I was also thinking that T&G helps prevent warping and better transfer of stress between the boards. Is that the case or no?

I did the obvious and put the chip deflector in BEFORE putting the tongue cutter in place and, guess what? It works a treat!! Completed my first tongue in just a few minutes after that. Now on to the groove!

Thanks again for the input, guys. Man there is a lot to learn! I feel like I'm just starting out on a learning path that will take a lifetime and not ever really stop.

Shawn

Hi Shawn--not much better than to hear of success! We all smile when something works out.

The part of your post which I highlighted is what keeps me interested in both woodowrking in general, but trying new things in woodworking.

T&G can be used for a few purposes. One, you can use it as a way to align boards for glue up--but it is a fairly poor method prone to error and is simply more work than necessary. Splines being quicker, but a simple edge to edge glue up being more than adequate for nearly any woodworking project.

T&G traditionally has been used to allow for wood expansion/contraction so one cannot "see" all the way through the join. Same thing for Jacob's mention of the shiplap. Often used for cabinet backs, etc.

Take care, Mike

 

[Wylie2112]

Thanks, Mike.

So for joining two or three narrow boards to make a wider one for a shelf or the upright of a bookcase, what kind of method would be adequate to give good alignment as well as a solid joint?

Shawn

 

[Paul Chapman]

what kind of method would be adequate to give good alignment as well as a solid joint?

If you want to use hand tools, then a groove in each board and a cross-grain tongue would be quicker, probably more accurate and stronger. A T&G joint would be weaker because the grain of the tongue is running in the same direction as the rest of the boards. For the tongue I would suggest plywood as the strongest and easiest.

Hope this helps :wink:

Paul

 

[MikeW]

Hi Shawn, edge gluing would be the time proven method. No need for reinforcement. I edge glue about 10 mm thick boards for thin shelves all the time. Same with thin drawer sides when I don't have wide enough boards.

For uprights such as for bookcase sides where the stock is thicker, say 18 mm or thicker, I also just joint the boards true and flat/straight and edge glue.

Take care, Mike

 

[Anonymous]

I did the obvious and put the chip deflector in BEFORE putting the tongue cutter in place and, guess what? It works a treat!! !

Lot to learn alright. Never stops. I didn't know how well that deflector worked. So it pushes all the shavings out the mouth eh ? Don't have to clear them every pass ?

I still think you'd like these better..... :roll:

They don't run on thin skates which can mark up softwoods and cause an accident .... also, the depth stops the whole body, so I think they depth out better....and there easy to true, since their just wood.

Found can stick a deep fence on them,,,,,keeps them vertical...... more accuracy again.....do it blindfolded.....Like the one in the photo above.

I think whatever plane you use try and flare the inside edges of the blade a touch....you only want the very front edges cutting...

you don't want the inside edges clipping the tongue on the way down, with the little wobble that goes on as you plane (more likely with a little face on your fence)

So I'd try and sharpen it so the gap between the blade edges is slightly smaller than the gap further up the blade. Or at the very least make it parallel....I just line up the blade on paper with parallel lines during sharpening...like this sort of thing.

So you end up with crisp square shoulders rather than a sad looking tongue thats closer resembling a piramid. if you know what I mean.

A few I've come accross seem to have that problem straight from the factory.....have to file at the inside edges to correct.

Sorry about the big pictures. I can't seem to be able to attach smaller ones on this forum. Hard enough time trying to get these larger ones on anyway. The URL tags don't seem to work for me.

 

[Anonymous]

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[Anonymous]

So much so that I wonder if combination planes are actually much used at all. Do they ever get used on a regular basis, or just as a stop gap for the odd job when something better is not available? Has anyone seen a well used one with signs of wear etc? They look a bit flimsy with lots of bits to lose.

Hi Jacob, I haven't seen many that have been used much. A couple I've come accross with just one of the blades from its set heavily used, but the rest unused sort of thing.....

I quite like combination planes cause of the options they can bring....but generally their not as good as a well tuned and set woodie IMO. Definetly with T&Groovin I think.....but then everything has its pros and cons eh.

What I like about combination planes is the steel I suppose. Moulding planes with plenty of regular use wear much faster.

 

[bugbear]

So much so that I wonder if combination planes are actually much used at all. Do they ever get used on a regular basis, or just as a stop gap for the odd job when something better is not available? Has anyone seen a well used one with signs of wear etc?

I've never seen a claim that a combination plane is better at an induividual job than a dedicated plane.

However, both the claims of the advertisers and the recommendation of the old books are in agreement - they're cheaper to buy, and more compact to carry (if you're doing site work) than the equivalent (rather extensive) set of dedicated planes.

On the "wear" issue, to be honest (and IME), I've seen few planes other than the basic jacks and smoothers with clear signs of substantial wear. The cutting of joints and mouldings involves far less strenuous labour than stock prep. Even fore and jointer planes rarely show much wear.

BugBear

 

[Anonymous]

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[Anonymous]

On the "wear" issue, to be honest (and IME), I've seen few planes other than the basic jacks and smoothers with clear signs of substantial wear. The cutting of joints and mouldings involves far less strenuous labour than stock prep. Even fore and jointer planes rarely show much wear.

BugBear

:? Well, maybe I just use them more than you (which is odd, I didn't think I used them more than necessary). My comparison is between the wear of steel skates in combination planes to the equivelents in wooden planes.

Rounds can develop grooves in them pretty quick in front of the mouth from edge starts.....I have a small old one that had never been used prior to me owning it.......From my regular use its not looking good.

Beads with its thin boxing can wear in a similar manner I've noticed.

Generally old planes clearly don't hold up as well over time. Compare that to the skates of say an old stanley 45.

If its a wood bench plane or something with a square edges....usually no big deal......cause their easily re-trued. ...But if its a bead or a sash or something fancy like that, if they swell often their too hard to fix.....where its just not worth the time.

The thin boxing often seperates from the main body the older it gets.

It makes sense also if the planes dropping down on a thin boxed edge the pressure on it will be quite substantial . yes ? If the profile changes slightly as a result the blades profile will have to re-sharpened to match etc etc.

Should be enough examples there to at least get a gist of what I'm talking about. Steel is just hardier. Just noticed I don't have to worry about wear with them.

 

[bugbear]

On the "wear" issue, to be honest (and IME), I've seen few planes other than the basic jacks and smoothers with clear signs of substantial wear. The cutting of joints and mouldings involves far less strenuous labour than stock prep. Even fore and jointer planes rarely show much wear.

BugBear

:? Well, maybe I just use them more than you (which is odd, I didn't think I used them more than necessary). My comparison is between the wear of steel skates in combination planes to the equivelents in wooden planes.

Rounds can develop grooves in them pretty quick in front of the mouth from edge starts.....I have a small old one that had never been used prior to me owning it.......From my regular use its not looking good.

All fair points; as many people can attest, I'm pretty unlikely to wear out woodworking tools

Your point about age I heartily agree on; sadly I've seen many more wooden planes damaged by worm, rot, rust, or wet than wear.

One anecdotal piece of evidence; Steve Knight was using a (self made) wooden plane for chafering; a groove appeared in the centre of the sole very rapidly.

BugBear

 

[MikeW]

I've used H&Rs a lot. Mine are a half set of Mosley & Sons. I have seen no wear, warpage or other damage in a bazillion years.

Same with my Preston chamfering plane, side beads, molders and moving fillister. I do wax the soles during use somewhat.

Take care, Mike

 

[Wylie2112]

Paul and Mike,

Thanks for that tip on edge glueing or using an insert rather than T&G. May need to rethink the approach on this! Now that you guys have said all this, it does seem like unecessary work.

Jake,

Yeah, the chip deflector works a treat. Now instead of a six-inch pass clogging up the mouth, I get a full-length (28") chip that curls itself neatly around the forward extension bar. Don't know if that part's intentional, but it sure is tidy. Thanks for the tip on tapering the mouth on the tongue cutter, too.

So, the project is back on track! Next will come questions of glueing and planing, I'm sure. Watch this space!

Shawn

 

[Anonymous]

I've used H&Rs a lot. Mine are a half set of Mosley & Sons. I have seen no wear, warpage or other damage in a bazillion years.

Same with my Preston chamfering plane, side beads, molders and moving fillister. I do wax the soles during use somewhat.

Take care, Mike

Sounds like you've got a good set. Maybe your kinder on them than I ? I keep them waxed too. maybe its the harder timber over here I work sometimes.....or climate :? . I don't know.

Those boxing in the wooden beads I have seem to deteriate pretty quick. Makes me prefer the combination planes for those sort of cuts. But each to their own eh.

Pleasure Wylie,,,,,,, I've got to keep an eye out for one of those deflectors for myself. 8)

 

[Paul Chapman]

Thanks for that tip on edge glueing or using an insert rather than T&G. May need to rethink the approach on this! Now that you guys have said all this, it does seem like unecessary work.

Apart from any strength issues, one of the reasons I like to use some sort of loose tongue is that it ensures the boards are perfectly aligned when you glue them up. It also makes the glue-up process much faster and less of a hassle and prevents the boards slipping about. If after glue-up you find that the boards are not properly aligned, you will have a lot of work planing them to get them flat.

In my time I've used plywood loose tongues and formed the grooves with a plane and an electric router. These days I use a biscuit jointer and biscuits. In effect it does the same job but so much faster and very accurate.

Hope this helps :wink:

Paul

 

[Anonymous]

Thanks for that tip on edge glueing or using an insert rather than T&G. May need to rethink the approach on this! Now that you guys have said all this, it does seem like unecessary work.

Apart from any strength issues, one of the reasons I like to use some sort of loose tongue is that it ensures the boards are perfectly aligned when you glue them up. It also makes the glue-up process much faster and less of a hassle and prevents the boards slipping about. If after glue-up you find that the boards are not properly aligned, you will have a lot of work planing them to get them flat.

In my time I've used plywood loose tongues and formed the grooves with a plane and an electric router. These days I use a biscuit jointer and biscuits. In effect it does the same job but so much faster and very accurate.

Hope this helps :wink:

Paul

I've always stubbornly stopped myself from buying a biscuit jointer. Bit silly I suppose. Noisey machines seem to dampern my interest for woodworking somewhat. Not that I should let it. It doesn't stop me from throwing a board through the thicknesser though. :lol:

I agree with you on the loose tongues being quicker than forming a tongue. Just need a plough for that. Lock up depth stop and fence and thats it. Save on a bit of width to your glueup too. Can try and be fancy as well inserting a tongue of a different tone....whatever.

Have good week