Surround Sound

[Terry Smart]

Hi All

There's an interesting thread elsewhere about surround sound making it easier to hear speech; we're in the process of thinking about a new TV set (I'm not that fussed as there's so little worth watching, but that could be the subject of a whole different thread!) and I was bearing the advice in mind that it could well be worth getting one with surround sound, but as ever I got confused about it all, so I'm back for some help.

My question is quite simple really; I imagined that surround sound required extra speakers connected to the tv and then placed around the room, but it seems that it uses the speakers built into the tv. Is this right?

Please don't overload me with recommendations for a new tv, we're confused enough as it is! And don't even start about DVD HDD recorders or FreeView - the shop said we can get it in our postcode area, the website when I checked at home said not!

 

[wizer]

Terry, surround sound requires you to have speakers around the room. It will use the TV Speakers inconjunction with the other speakers. I belive some TV's claim to 'emulate' surround sound but in my experience they are rubbish.

 

[ikd]

True surround sound requires the following speakers (to Dolby 5.1 I think)
Left and Right (of the TV)
Centre
left and right satellite (to the rear of the room)
Sub Woofer (for monsterous bass)

I rent a TV and have just changed to a Plasma with a separate home cinema box (the joys of renting - you can change your tv every year). The puedo surround sound on the TV is hopeless. The surround sound from the home cinema box is something else. There is no comparison. Although the sub woofer makes the windows bow and the books vibrate off there shelves, but I have now found a setting that you can switch to reduce the bass if I need too

 

[beejay]

Hi terry,
True surround sound stereo does require off tv rear/side mounted speakers.
Most recent tv's have a centre(for voice) and side(for background) speakers built in with provision via the menu to change the sound effect of the speakers. For example, you may be able to expand the bass output or switch the side speaker sound to a "spatial setting" which is like a pseudo surround and without the need to add rear speakers. Normally such tv's will have several different sound settings built in.

beejay

http://community.webshots.com/user/eunos9

 

[Terry Smart]

Thank you gentlemen.. your comments confirm that the guy in the shop didn't know what he was talking about... but these days that doesn't really surprise me much!

So, if I can ask another probably silly question - will the speakers plug into the tv or do I need to plug a special 'box' into the tv that the speakers will connect to - and why can't I get wireless ones?

 

[matt]

You'll need a surround sound amplifier to plug the speakers in to. You can use the same amp to power CD players, cassettes, etc...

Also... my rear speakers are recessed in to the ceiling above my sofa. An excellent solution to having too many speakers crowding the room but the speakers have to be good quality to achieve the direction and sense of positioning (from the listeners perspective).

Also... for the front left and right speakers you should be able to use your hi-fi speakers if they are of similar tonal balance as the speakers you buy to make up the full set.

Keff make a good range...

Finally... Funds allowing - go the seperates route rather than the all-in-one packages.

Sorry if that's information overload...

 

[Vormulac]

Hi Terry,

If you are getting a new tv you won't necessarily need to plug your speakers into a separate box (surround sound amp), as a great number of tvs have this built in. If you are keeping your old tv and want to go to surround sound, then yes, you'll need to get this separate box and the speakers that go with it.

Philips did experiment with wireless satellite speakers a few years ago, but I think they dropped the idea as they were quite bulky what with the obvious necessity for batteries and so-on.

Hope this helps,

V.

 

[beejay]

Terry, your new TV should come supplied with the rear speakers which will plug into the tv. It may be worth considering better wire for the rear speakers as the standard wire is very standard. Your local Richer Sounds should be able to help you. There will be a lot of other sockets as well for various add ons.
As for wireless rear speakers, I don't know the answer but again, your local Richer Sounds should be able to advise if such a system is available.
beejay

http://community.webshots.com/user/eunos9

 

[martyn2]

Panasonic do surround sound wireless speakers the cost is,nt that much more

martyn

 

[Terry Smart]

More useful information, thank you guys. I know I could look it up but sometimes wading through a million sites trying to get an answer to a simple question defeats me!

So, one last question then (until I think of another one). The 'Home Cinema' box sounds interesting - as long as it doesn't come with people rustling their sweet packets! - is this different to Surround Sound and does Surround Sound come close or is there no comparison?.. and yes I know that was more than one question but they're all wrapped up in one!

 

[martyn2]

I have a home suround sound box thats has a dvd player built in but I can also add other Items to it eg video, music center, and not a sweet packets,kids , or any other distraction If you have a Sony center near you go and talk to them they are beter trained than most !!

martyn

 

[RogerS]

Woah...Terry I think that you've not got a DVD player? In which case, I don't think anynone broadcasts any surround sound so there's no point in getting it. I've got a Sony Home Cinema setup that feeds the Tv sound through the Sony kit and on to the speakers. Whenever I watch normal terrestrial TV and I've played around with all the varoous settings on offer from the Sony box I've given up and gone back to plain old stereo NICAM

 

[Terry Smart]

Sorry Roger, you've got me a bit confused now!

We do have a DVD player but we want to upgrade to a DVD recorder with HDD and get rid of the video eventually (and have less boxes and less wires etc).
At the same time we were looking at new TV's and that is where we got confused (and mis-informed in the shop) about Surround Sound.
So you're saying that the incoming signal won't support Surround Sound? So why do people bother with it, or is it only for DVDs?
I've got a bit lost now!

 

[OLD]

Its down to cost if you would like a hifi system that will give you a home cinema effect with a dvd and much better sound from tv ,sky, tape ,disc ,radio or any other input device you need a surround sound amp which is actually 5 amps separate speakers for left right& front centre same or less good for left and right rear and a subwoofer which has to be powered .
The speakers in the tv are turned off and outputs from the various devices connect to the amp which encodes the signals and sends then to the correct speakers .
This encoding gives various effects dolby dolby 2 dts etc
Takes some understanding this stuff i got lots of info from what hifi mag ,but when you put on a dvd its worth it and the tv is loads better price and available space are considerations.

 

[Neomorph]

Woah...Terry I think that you've not got a DVD player? In which case, I don't think anynone broadcasts any surround sound so there's no point in getting it. I've got a Sony Home Cinema setup that feeds the Tv sound through the Sony kit and on to the speakers. Whenever I watch normal terrestrial TV and I've played around with all the varoous settings on offer from the Sony box I've given up and gone back to plain old stereo NICAM

Err... Totally Wrong... Most channels supply surround sound through stereo which is what you get through your nicam signal (called Dolby Pro Logic or Pro Logic IIx now). What you are probably getting mixed up with is nobody is broadcasting Dolby Digital yet but even that's wrong as my cable TV supplier is now supplying boxes with Dolby Digital, HDTV and a PVR built in.

I can assure you with a decent enough system the sound from even BBC1 can sound excellent on a surround sound system.

Now for Terry... I'd advise getting seperates as units that have multi-functions are both inferior and are what is called point source failures... namely if one part goes wonky it invariably affects the rest.

A seperate amp and speakers (I don't even use my TV speakers anymore) are also desirable as left and right speakers should be your best ones as they can also be used for stereo music too. Don't also fall into the trap of bigger is better. A decent small speaker in a small room will always sound better than an excellent big speaker in a small room. The big speaker would sound muddy as they are made for large areas and need room to "breath"

The center speaker should be a good one too as it's better for emphasising the speech. The rear speakers can be smaller as they only emphasise the ambiance in addition to the front speakers.

My advice would be to find a proper audio/visual shop with a listening room. You don't have to buy anything but the staff will do their best to let you hear the difference between systems.

One thing that wasn't clear here is what each surround sound is. Here is a brief list of what each is.

4.1 Surround - Right, Left, , Center, Rear Speakers (all connected to mono source), subwoofer (the 0.1 part of the 4.1)

5.1 Surround - Right, Left, Center, Rear Left, Rear Right, Subwoofer

6.1 Surround - Right, Left, Center, Rear Left, Rear Center, Rear Right, Subwoofer

7.1 Surround - Right, Left, Center, Mid Left, Mid Right, Rear Left, Rear Right, Subwoofer

Basically the more speakers the more expensive the setup. The most common is 5.1 and should be aimed at as a minimum. 4.1 is definately out of date now. I've actually got a 7.1 amp but only use if for 5.1 and use the other 2 channels for audio in another room which is cool.

On the DVD recorder side try and get one with a built in hard drive... That way you don't have to do a mad dash for a DVD disc when you want to record something and unlike video putting a DVD into a drive takes a while for the recorder to bring the disc to speed, read the info on it and then decide it's ready to record.

 

[Vormulac]

FWIW Terry, a few weeks ago I did exactly what you are planning and upgraded to a DVD/HDD recorder, a Pioneer DVR-630 and I have to say it has been better than my wildest expectations. No more grovelling around to find a tape with space on it for that thing you promised you'd record for the missus but is now only 30 seconds from starting and you've forgotten all about it is worth it in itself!
It's also a cracking DVD player.

I know that's a little off topic and I apologise, but I was in 2 minds about making the purchase and I am soooo glad I did.

V.

 

[Neomorph]

Terry there is a good post here that explains more on surround sound placement...


http://forum.ecoustics.com/bbs/messages/34579/129023.html

 

[Terry Smart]

Thank you one and all, your help, advice and information is very much appreciated. I know a lot more than I did when I started this post and realise that my best course of action, now that I have an idea of what I'm talking about, is to go to a specialist outlet and get some help choosing the set up that would be best for me.

Thanks again everyone.

 

[RogerS]

Err... Totally Wrong... Most channels supply surround sound through stereo which is what you get through your nicam signal (called Dolby Pro Logic or Pro Logic IIx now). What you are probably getting mixed up with is nobody is broadcasting Dolby Digital yet but even that's wrong as my cable TV supplier is now supplying boxes with Dolby Digital, HDTV and a PVR built in.

Sorry..suggest you check your definitions. Nicam is nothing to do with Dolby. It is a specific term related to how stereo signals (L and R) are encoded to be transmittable via the TV broadcast RF signal. None of the terrestrial broadcasters, as far as I am aware, transmits Dolby.

I can assure you with a decent enough system the sound from even BBC1 can sound excellent on a surround sound system.

I can assure you that, as a professional broadcast sound engineer, it does not. It sounds much better in the format that we originaly created it on ...ie stereo.

 

[Neomorph]

Sorry..suggest you check your definitions. Nicam is nothing to do with Dolby. It is a specific term related to how stereo signals (L and R) are encoded to be transmittable via the TV broadcast RF signal. None of the terrestrial broadcasters, as far as I am aware, transmits Dolby.

I can assure you with a decent enough system the sound from even BBC1 can sound excellent on a surround sound system.

I can assure you that, as a professional broadcast sound engineer, it does not. It sounds much better in the format that we originaly created it on ...ie stereo.

OK then so why is it that my surround system can pick out the correct surround information out of a stereo signal. I can assure you that my center channel and surround channels all seem to work superbly when films are shown on BBC1. I'm not saying it's Dolby Digital because it is not but the actually signal works like this for example...

Film in surround > Downmixed to stereo > Converted to Nicam for broadcast and transmitted> ^^^^^^^ Arrives at TV > Converted to stereo > Goes into Surround Sound Decoder > Dolby ProLogic seperates all channels and sends signals to correct speaker.

As I have had surround sound from the time Pro-Logic first came on the screen I've learned what to listen to and believe me when I say that you can hear the dolby surround signal moving around and if it wasn't there the signal would be stuck in the front field (left, center and right speakers). I still remember my first "surround" system that was made by connecting rear speakers to the left and right positive terminals (that's basically how surround works apparently and it amazed me that it worked pretty good).

You are perfectly correct in one sense though... Nicam is nothing to do with dolby... it's just a way to transmit stereo signals through the air. The fact that the stereo signal transmitted is encoded with dolby sub channels has nothing to do with it at all. The fact that you hear it better through your broadcasters stereo setup is because you are using really expensive equipment and top of the range monitor speakers I could only dream about. I only have a Denon AVR3805 + Mission speakers but they are good enough for me... The only thing I don't have is a subwoofer in my system but that's on purpose as I live in a terrace flat with people to the left, right and above me... I don't think they would be impressed with sonic booms going off in the middle of the night while I'm watching a movie as I can't sleep.

The dolby bit from nicam can be summarised in a quote from the specs of my own dolby receiver...

Dolby Pro Logic IIx and DTS Neo:6 for 5.1/7.1-channel playback from two-channel or matrixed four-channel sources

It means that two channels are fed into the receiver (ie the nicam signal from your TV) and out comes Dolby Pro Logic or DTS Neo (actually I only just found out it can get DTS through stereo - sweet!). The page I nicked the quote from can be found here -> http://www.soundandvisionmag.com/article.asp?section_id=3&article_id=643&page_number=2