Starting to work with metal?

[Chris152]

Thank you AES - comments passed on and gratefully received!

We're planning a trip to Makers Central after I saw the thread in AOB, he's pretty excited as he knows some of the YouTubers there. But it got me wondering.

It seems to me (knowing next to nothing) that at one extreme, you get metalworkers making one-off pieces (we watched the video of a fella making a metal safe, linked to on UKW, in wonder - can't remember what he was called); and at the other extreme you might have someone operating a computer that controls a milling machine (for example) making items on an industrial scale. I'm guessing that the one-off pieces route is like art - you have to be the best to make a living at it; and the industrial route follows a relatively clearly established and demanding education that allows you to control the computer as well as knowing the milling machine - and you end up making what your employer/ client needs made.

Do people make a decent living between these two poles? If so, who are they and what do they do? Maybe there are far too many answers, I'm just trying to get my head around the possible career directions and at the moment have no idea what comes between the two.

 

[AES]

Chris, it's purely guess work on my part (whatever I do is "only" a hobby and I doubt if it even pays its own costs), but I guess that just like I did when I ran my own company before I retired, you've got to find a special niche (in my case, nothing whatever to do with making stuff though).

But earlier in this thread when you were asking about lathes, someone (I forget who, sorry) said he made a good turnover (not sure about profit) making items in batches on a Myford. So it must be possible, but again guessing, I would think an awful lot depends on having the right contacts to start off with.

OTOH you read plenty of posts here from woodworkers who find it extremely difficult if not impossible to run a profitable business by making (any?)thing/s out of wood. In my own case I just like to make the odd toy (mainly one-offs - I hate the idea of any form of batch/mass production - that's not why I retired)! But when I take a reasonable look at what it costs me (materials+ time for a moderate "wage") to make a toy then compare it with something similar in our Aldis and Lidls over here, there's no way I could get down to those prices - and as said, I don't even want to try.

In short I guess it depends on A) your approach to the whole business of making stuff; B) if you can find some sort of niche idea/product; and C) what you can organize/build up in the way of contacts.

That's my own take, but I'm sure others here will have other ideas and experiences.

Good luck anyway.

 

[Trevanion]

Do people make a decent living between these two poles? If so, who are they and what do they do? Maybe there are far too many answers, I'm just trying to get my head around the possible career directions and at the moment have no idea what comes between the two.

There are FAR too many answers! :lol:

I imagine if you look around your local area on the industrial estates and even in the most unlikely places such as farms you will find people grafting away somewhere between the two poles.

A friend of mine runs a precision CNC engineering and motorsport business out of a a literal farm shed, another friend runs a specialist aluminium/stainless fabrication workshop out in the sticks, we also have a very good nut and bolt shop / engineering firm on the local industrial estate which if I remember correctly hasn't got any CNC machines and is all done the good ol' fashioned way. We do still have the local MOD base which I THINK takes some kids on but it's all very top secret stuff going on in there :roll: That's not even the tip of the iceberg really!

So long as there's farmers, things will be broken and need fixing :lol:

 

[Chris152]

Yep, I can see that question was far too vague. Thanks for the gentle pointer! Ok, I was thinking job titles/ roles, post A-level that would lead to more education/ training (apprenticeship/ university/ whatever). I have done searches online but think I'm not getting a sense of the range of options. Maybe that's still to vague/ broad to list - can anyone point me to a website that goes through options?

AES - in my web surfing I found a site in the US (https://study.com/articles/Be_a_Craftsm ... ments.html) with a section called 'Become a Craftsman' - it includes the following info on woodworking:
Employment Outlook and Salary Information
'According to the U.S. Bureau of Labors Statistics (BLS) in 2015, woodworkers earned an annual median salary of $28,990, while machinists earned $40,550 and tool and die makers brought home $50,290. The BLS predicts that the job outlook for woodworkers will be a 1% decline in job growth from 2014-2024. Employment for machinists was expected to expand by 10%, and jobs for tool and die makers were expected to decrease by 13%, according to the BLS.'
I guess it's pretty much the same here.

 

[AES]

Good morning Chris.

Sorry to say that I cannot answer with any certainty re the web site you found. What that site says SOUNDS logical to me, BUT as someone who A) left UK as a resident almost 40 years ago, B) hasn't worked as an employee of any UK company since 1990, and C) has only ever worked in aviation; I really cannot answer with any definite info, sorry.

But as said, it SOUNDS logical to say that toolmakers are the most highly skilled and therefore are likely to earn the most. BTW, not wanting to teach Granny to suck eggs, but if you didn't already know, don't let the term "tool" make you think only of the spanner or drill that you hold in your hands.

"Jigs and Tools" are highly specialised (and often very expensive) items ranging from huge "lumps of metal" that are, for example, used in press machines to stamp out everything from tin ash trays to large car body parts; used to hold large lumps of structure together while they're being built and repaired and modified (e.g. aeroplane wings and fuselages); right down to very high precision items used to align parts while being assembled and stripped for build and servicing (e.g. anything from watches to aero engines).

Someone has to design and often make all those highly specialised items and that's often the tool maker.

As an example, a good friend of mine in the local model aero club was a self-employed tool maker who, until he died, was rushed off his feet designing and making the injection moulding tools for the plastic mobile phone casings. How he, as a single man business working from his cellar (houses here are generally larger than in UK) came on to such work I don't know (no doubt "contacts"), but I do know he was a time-served tool maker in a high-precision Swiss mech engineering company. But judging by his life style he was doing very well indeed thank you very much!

For "the lad" I'd be very much in favour of him going for A levels, but for Uni, sorry but based on what I've seen of a number of grads I've worked with, I have my doubts.

IF he wants to go the "practical/productive route" that is. Based on my own experience, an apprenticeship such as I had (RAF) or a couple of mates of mine that I worked closely with had (one at what was then the BEA airline, the other BOAC airline - both now British Airways of course) would be a better route because both academic and practical work are covered in such apprenticeships - BUT as said above, my experience of the UK is well out of date now.

Trevanion is IMO spot on when he says above that there are always people who need to get broken stuff fixed, but how "the lad" gets a start in such work these days I just don't know, sorry.

But from all you've said, it sounds like his school and teacher/s are really good, so I'm sure you've spoken to them already?

Anyway, best of luck to him, he's clearly well off along the road to success and I'm sure he'll find a good way to build on that.

 

[Chris152]

Thanks for such a helpful reply, AES. I think the biggest struggle we're having here is my complete ignorance of the field. I came through the fine arts route and this is all pretty alien to me. As for 'tool maker', it turns out that's what my dad was (I thought he was a machinist) - and I had no idea how diverse it is, I did think it was just making tools. He did an apprenticeship, worked in the navy and then into the world of machine tools.
We read through your reply together and it turns out the boy's more focused than I realised - he's telling me he wants to become a mechanical engineer, working with engines and structures (I'm assuming that's the sort of thing you mean when you refer to aeroplane wings and fuselages, and so on). The Wikipedia entry on 'Mechanical engineering' opened my eyes! Advice from school has been helpful - they suggested an apprenticeship which, to my understanding can involve very different things depending on where you do it and what your potential is. Early days for the specific route he might take or exactly where it might lead, but at least I'm getting a better understanding of what might be involved!
Thanks again, Chris.

 

[AES]

Glad to be of help Chris, and "the lad" deserves encouragement from anyone able to offer it.

As said previously I just have no idea of what the current UK situation but I do listen to BBC Radio 4 and understand that the present Govt are indeed pushing apprenticeships. If the school suggest this then I'm sure they must be available these days. Most important (IMO) is that both the right sort of academic work (directly relevant to the industry) is covered alongside practical work directly aligned to the industry the apprenticeship covers - to give a silly example, there's not a lot of point in learning how to make structures out of riveted aluminium sheet if you're going to be handling welded steel plates for building ships!!

And to answer your question above, by "structures" I was indeed referring to the "bits of bent ali" that go together to build the framework of an aeroplane - just as an example again.

But let's not get bogged down in the detail at this early stage. The school should be able to find details of available apprenticeships which will give a good outline of the sort of work done/products which the company offering the apprenticeship produces, allowing him to make a good choice which suits him.

But I did hear on BBC4 that competition for apprenticeship places is quite keen, so the young man does need to have good school exam results - "O" & "A" Levels (or whatever they're called these days).

Apart from wishing him all the best I should bow out of this now 'cos as said before, my "knowledge" of what's happening in UK these days is terribly out of date.

All the best.

 

[Chris152]

Thanks again, AES. As I said before, I think the weak link in understanding the possibilities is me. And there's no doubt, focus on exam results is the key at the moment! C

 

[novocaine]

get good grades and the world is his. no comment about this being right or wrong.

If he wants to be on the tools then machinist, tool maker or technician is a good place to be, all of which are apprenticeships.
He wont make a ton and he'll slog it out everyday but I'll put money on it that he enjoys it.
if wants to be a bit on the machines but stand a chance of making some other money, mechanical engineer is a good way to go, that means uni.

I took the latter option. worked out ok although I'm now in a desk job and don't get to play in workshops very much at all I do get to have the money to play with a few bits and bobs.

 

[heimlaga]

I have plenty of friends and relatives and aquintaces who are welders or machinists and industrial manintainence men. Even the odd toolmaker.
This is absolutely not a field where you make plenty of money quick but you are exceptionally likely to get a decent living wage for a decent job and reach retirement with all significant parts of your body in functional order. As there are a huge number of speciality trades within the general field and the borders between the specialities tend to be very blurry theese people also tend to find new jobs when the old job disappeares.
That is as good a job as anyone can wish for in our time. Way better than being an unemployed academic or a carpenter with a broken back or an underpaid shop assistant living on benefits.

In my oppinion your lad is now at the age when one should get started.
I learneded forging at his age. Turning and welding are also suitable activities.
Contrary to the others I rekon stick welding to be a good starting point. A good direct current stick welder and a couple of angle grinders and a drill press aren't too expensive.
In a few years he will be skilled enough to rebuild any old worn out lathe by himself.

If he is seriously into metalwork he will certainly fetch his tools as soon as he is living somewhere with room for them. If you can store his tools for a few years there is no need to sell them. I still use many of the tools I bought or made as a teenager.

 

[Chris152]

Anyone built a remote control car from scratch? I've no idea what's involved, but he wants to have a go at it, making all he can, buying parts as necessary. I think it'll be a good thing for him to do - now doing Maths, Physics and Product Design and very clear he wants to get into automotive engineering, so it'd give him a chance to try stuff out in practice. He's still determined to work in metal rather than wood. #-o
Does anyone have any advice on where he should start - any particular websites/ books you could recommend?
Many thanks,
C

ps I saw one of these today for £200, I think it's been used for demos, seems cheap but could it be any good? Not quite the old British built models recommended above, but hey ho!
https://www.axminster.co.uk/axminster-m ... the-505100

 

[Ttrees]

There is numerous versions of what looks to be the same as those lathes coming in from the east
Search on youtube for "minilathe" or chinese lathe ect.
They have plastic gears, but you can probably buy metal ones.
There is much info on the few videos I watched.
Tom

 

[MusicMan]

The 'Workshop Practice' series of books on Amazon are a good start.

 

[--Tom--]

I’ve just started an NVQ in welding and fabrication at coleg gwent in Newport. 6-9 every Monday evening with a very well kitted out workshop. First week was this week so not much missed if he wanted to sign up ( Newport isn’t too far from Cowbridge- I get the train from Cardiff to Newport then cycle along the river so doesn’t “need” a car)

I’m really enjoying it so far and the tutors are really knowledgeable.

 

[Chris152]

Thanks all.
Ttrees - the problem is that I haven't a clue if they're any good for that price/ any good at all. The reviews on the site suggest it's fine but just wondered if anyone had used it or any from that series.
MusicMan - I'll check them out. [edit - they look really good from what I can tell online, and not expensive. thanks!]
Tom - Newport's a tricky one from here unless you'r driving - bus to the train station in Cardiff adds lots of time, but I'll take a look at Bridgend to see if they do the same. Great idea. [edit - your course is for 19+ years old, and Bridgend doesn't do one similar. Dang!]

 

[Chris152]

Sorted on kit - he's asked and can use the equipment in school so long as there's a teacher in the workshop. That'll save a few ££s I've also found a couple of forums dealing with RC and model engineering-related matters, so hopefully he'll get started soon. He's also picking apart an old rc car he has to see what's what. (hammer)

 

[novocaine]

Start simple. Look at some thing like a mardave stock or mini for inspiration.
Basically a plank of grp with some bits bolted to it. Real easy and he can get to grips with electronics wothout all the other hassles. Then he can move on up to something with suspension. Using the mardave platform will let him do that in increments too.
Might be worth introducing him to cad (autodesk has a free version of autocad for students so he should qualify) i can run you through some basics but im running an old version so somethings will be different. Id say get him drawing on paper as well, pick him up a cheap drawing board and a square. This will be incredibly useful skills for him to work in any industry as a good engineer. He can then research suspension (4 bar linkage, trailing arm and mcfesson being a good place to start) and then have a go designing his own. There are apps online that he can put his design in and simulate how it moves (or cardboard aided design).

 

[Dalboy]

Chris how about getting him to make a simple stationary steam engine to start with this will allow him to get the hang of the machines at school.
THIS site has some free plans and even some IC engines which would be interesting.
I see you found your way to the model engineering site

 

[Trevanion]

Chris how about getting him to make a simple stationary steam engine to start with this will allow him to get the hang of the machines at school.

I think that's a really good way of getting a start into beginners engineering, not as exciting as an RC car but has plenty of challenges and exact tolerances to be met. It's a slippery slope though as we've seen with Fred Dibnah and I'm not sure if Chris would want a full-sized traction engine or steam roller on his driveway :lol:

 

[Chris152]

Thanks fellas - I'll get him to read through these as soon as he (eventually) gets up this morning.
My prediction is that he'll go for the idea of starting with a really simple design just to get something that works and to understand the basics. And it sounds like something we could get on with at home, in large part. He's keen to work to 1:8 scale, so reckon it'd be best to buy any parts that'll need buying to a size that will work to that scale for the 'prototype' and re-use them?
I love those old steam engines, and we used to go to a track not far away when they were little to be towed around by one (a train setup), but he's now obsessed with cars and my feeling is that interest will get him through the build whereas a steam engine might end up half finished? And as Trevanion points out, could lead all over the shop - next thing it'll be converting my van to steam, much rather he figured a way to fit an electric motor
Definitely keen to get him going on cad - I guess they'll be doing that in school, but I was thinking to get him designing the next surfboard we plan to build. They have cnc in school so it may be possible to get him to cut the ribs, which was boring to do on the bandsaw and probably far less accurate. But that's something else. We'll download autodesk and have a play with that, no doubt more questions will follow!