Spiral cutters

[johnnyb]

It's interesting that you can buy spares from axminster for a machine they nor anyone else has ever sold in Europe. Great service that is. How is the jet/Byrd head? Jet machines seem a better bet than axminsters current crop although are they still made? I guess it's just axminsters don't want to sell them.

 

[no idea]

The 310HH and even a 410 (with and without helical heads) are sold in Europe. There are some differences with the American versions of these machines (JJP12 etc.) but I identified all the parts using the parts manual for the 310HH. Whilst I did buy them from Axminster, it was at my own risk if they didn't fit, work etc. which was fine because the parts were for a machine that Axminster/Brimarc did not supply or support and I would have had the same risk if I tried to buy the Byrd head from America or a 310HH from Europe.

In terms of the points made by the OP, I went down the path of buying the JPT310 with the intention of converting it because I prefer the Jet design to the Axminster PT designs, I knew the Byrd head was available so I could fall back on that if the Jet head wasn't available, Axminster have always provided exemplary support, they were easier to deal with than Felder/Hammer when asking for technical support and advice and this was also a cheaper option than the Hammer. I also enjoy playing with machines so doing the conversion myself was part of the fun.

 

[custard]

Try doing a search, this subject has been tackled several times. Some of the key points from previous posts,

-not all spiral cutter blocks are the same, some are superb while others leave loads of witness lines
-by and large if you're a heavy user doing deep joinery cuts and frequently changing knives you won't like a spiral head, but if you're dealing with highly figured timbers you'll think it's the best thing since sliced bread
-spiral heads produce much more compacted waste
-talking to a Felder engineer earlier this year he said only about 10% of new buyers are currently speccing spiral blocks, I'd have one in a heartbeat but the order figures suggest they're a specialist/minority benefit for most makers

 

[Eric The Viking]

[Custard: the epitome of common sense, as always! Below was written a bit earlier today, but not posted.]

Surely it's not the case that one of the two block designs is absolutely better than the other?

I put a lot of softwood through my little Kity "hobbyist" machine, and for that it's pretty good (although a bit slow and under-powered). It struggles with hardwood, even with newly-sharpened knives.

But I was up at one of Peter Sefton's open days a few years ago, where he had organised a demo of the (then new to the UK) Hammer spiral block, which was very impressive, particularly on difficult woods. The finish was almost what you'd get from hand tools.

The spiral cutters slice, like a skewed plane iron, whereas conventional cutters don't. I see the same on my rebate cutter on the router table - the carbide is skewed - you really do see the difference, in a cleaner finish with less (usually no) tearout.

Then there's the thing about knicking a knife on a nail or a bit of grit - you don't lose a lot of material from the knife on a regrind, it's just a matter of finding the damaged cutter and either rotating or swapping it. It suggests that the cost of ownership should be better, but I'd be very interested to know if that's true or just wishful thinking.

Given the time it takes to properly clean my own PT after running softwood though it, I can see that a spiral block might gum up more and be a nuisance in that context, so it's reasonable that standard knives would be better.

On noise, I was surprised that the block was noticeably quieter than Peter's standard planer (of similar size; the Hammer demo machine was next to it), but not so quiet as to go "wow!".

To enlarge a bit on MikeJhn's comments, for a meaningful comparison it all gets a bit technical: you have to consider the noise envelope: not just how loud it is overall, but the nature of the sound. High pitched sound can be absorbed relatively easily, and doesn't travel very well. Low sound is much harder to deal with, but also less of a nuisance, because most machines don't emit a lot of it (relatively speaking).

I would expect, based on experience, that a spiral block actually is much quieter for a number of technical reasons, because the percussive, impact noise will be a lot less, and higher pitch. BUT... whether that is a significant part of the overall noise of the machine, is another matter altogether.

I was going to talk here about how difficult it is to measure noise meaningfully. I've moved it into a fresh thread in General Chat, if anyone is interested. If you're bored by that sort of thing, just don't read it (nobody is forcing you to!).

Happy New Year, all,

E.

 

[johnnyb]

That's even more interesting then that it was sold in Europe but not in the UK. (We are in Europe atm btw) I think given identical costs everyone would buy a heli head or a tersa. Traditional knives are a pain financially and performance wise. The reason these have really taken over in the states is convenience. Muricans are more spendy overall and more responsive to convenience(lazy!). Our big tool companies are not buying in to this and. In fact if they sell a ****** heli head it could damage the whole idea. Overall cost is a significant restriction to ownership. For example I guess tool companies would sell a lot more planers at 50% of the current cost. And I also guess that people would upgrade to helical if the cost was only 10% more of the 50% rate! My point is overall cost is king.significant players scm hammer are European made but the USA still pay a lot less than us (in the UK)
The technology is better. It's just we don't have woodworkers who want to spend the amount we in the UK have to pay for it! £500 on top of an Already overblown price has led to that 5% take up figure and the absence of any real choice in this market sector.

 

[ndbrown]

When I first looked at the cost of setting up a workshop back in 2007 and before I started to buy secondhand and rebuild or refurbish machines the Hammer A3-31 was £1499 including VAT. Ten years on it has doubled in cost before adding the cost of a Spiral block, I recently sold an Axminster Bench drill for double what I paid in 2007. In general the whole cost of new machinery seems very high.
On the subject of the spiral block, my A3-26 arrived today, I still need to get a 16A supply installed so I have not been able to use it, but it is unpacked and 10/10 to Hammer UK for an incredibly well packed machine, arrived as promised with no damage or missing parts. Of course still have to see if it works.....

Truly exceptional packing, but based on the size of the package I started to worry that the machine was much larger than I remember

Thankfully it was a pallet within a pallet

Unpacked with mobility kit fitted

In thicknessing mode

Spiral Block

Block close up

Looking forward to making some shavings
Nigel

 

[acewoodturner]

I have a 4 knife tersa Sedgwick Mb. Bought it about 3 years ago for £1250 off ebay. It is simple to change the knives over. Takes me about 10 mins because I make sure I clean out the grooves they sit in and it is reversing the knives instead of installing new ones, I clean them up as well so the bed down properly. Changing all those cutters over would drive me bonkers and look as if it would take ages. How much would a full set of inserts cost bearing in mind that they have 4 edges instead of two on the tersa system. Are other manufacturers inserts available that would fit it. I seem to remember my mate has to get his knives from Felder as know one else can make them. That to me would make you a hostage to Felder's price rises regardless.

Mike

 

[ndbrown]

I don’t know how long it would take to change them all but I never changed the knives in the Sedgwick PT255 in the 4 years that I had it; they were German Barke HSS knives but I did get a couple of nicks in them with small nails from reclaimed oak.
At least with this block I only need to rotate and damaged edges of individual inserts. I am told that these TCT inserts will outlast the Barke blades by a factor of four and the commercial makers that have these say they are getting substantially longer before turning the edges compared with ordinary knives. I guess only time will tell but I don’t expect I will use this set up for quite a few years.

 

[johnnyb]

You'll need a type c mcb as well. Astonishing price rises for hammer machines. I remember axminsters hugely increasing there prices quite suddenly. Then having to revise them down a bit. Howdens did the same. Might be a diversionary tactic!
That looks a nice block though. Personally I would choose the jet 310hh with the Byrd shelix if it was available. Felder/hammer remind me to much of festool bs. And the insert will always be available in the us.
I phoned the sales chap at hammer and mentioned the price increases he immediately lost interest thinking me a timewaster. As you know they don't publish prices so there hikes are hidden.

 

[ndbrown]

For me, space limitations dictated a small compact planer and the Sedgwick I had was the short bed version which allowed me to have a compact workshop with space to still make things. If I had a larger workshop or a different layout I would have looked at a 300mm machine such as the Minimax FS30. The difference in machine depth is not always significant but the increase in table length is. For my projects, only once in the last 4 years have I needed a longer table and I can get this with the A3-26 using table extensions. I was firmly in the 260mm class of machine and the quick change over leaving the fence in place and close to wall location with the spiral block gave met my needs. I recon its quicker than the Sedgwick to change modes as I dont have to move the fence. There are lots of good machines available new and second hand. The Hammer list price is the starting price for negotiation if you are serious about buying and I certainly got a good deal for me with all the options I added.
Nigel

 

[Chip shop]

As you know they don't publish prices so there hikes are hidden.

To be fair, if you create an account on the Felder website, once logged in they do publish their prices.

Also, I bought an A3 31 about five years ago and I think I paid around about £2250 including the dreaded. They're currently £2990 (and I'm sure you'd be able to get some discount). I'm no Felder fanboy, I can assure you, but I thought I might point out that the price hike isn't quite as horrific as some are perhaps making it sound (oh, and they're not a bad machine either).

Not sure I'd bother with a spiral block though, but then I rarely have anything approaching difficult timber to work with.

 

[johnnyb]

I guess Felder/hammer are a niche product. I think there ad catchline was when your thoughts turn to perfection. £730 in 5years though is no +5%! Typical discount is 3-5%.

 

[custard]

I guess the fall in the value of the pound has something to do with it. Twelve months ago American Black Walnut was about £80 a cubic foot, today most yards are asking over £100.

Woodworking wasn't a particularly cheap hobby to begin with, if your tastes run to imported goods then it's becoming even less affordable.

 

[Chip shop]

I think there ad catchline was when your thoughts turn to perfection

Reminds me of a Leica Geosystems calendar we had a couple of years ago, where the tag line was 'When It Has To Be Right'. Trouble was; they missed out February.

 

[johnnyb]

Easily done though it's the shortest one for a start!