Social distancing, .. what's that?

[RobinBHM]

Anyone refusing to do something sensible because they've been told to is a pig ignorant, selfish silly person.
There are also a LOT of people out there who are too dim to think to do things for themselves, so what do you suggest: targeted messages only aimed at mouth breathers in order not to upset the terminally offended?

Sheesh...

The success of keeping the R value down below 1, requires collective effort.

So yes the rules may be somewhat contradictory, but if we individually follow sensibly that will have a net benefit for everybody.


I hate all these peopel which claim "its no worse than flu" "its a scamdemic"

 

[doctor Bob]

So I've had a read and the gist seems to be that some people who are not at risk from Covid-19 are happy for those who are to be sacrificed for the good of the economy. Did I miss anything?

That's one side if you want to make it a 2 sided arguement, So there is another side you have completely missed, can't think how if you have read it all!!
I think most would like somewhere in the middle, but if you are happy with a single sentence input then you have cracked it sir, congratulations Einstien

 

[doctor Bob]

Its one thing if it kills someone in late stage Dementia, its another if it kills someone who has a very weakened immune system, say transplant patient, somebody with COPD etc...... thats a group who may live perfectly good lives with minimal loss of quality of life but Covid could get.

Hard though it is, there is a good argument to say the human race keeps people alive beyond their natural lifespan and as a result beyond the limit where they have quality of life. As somebody who has spent a fair time visiting one or other parent in hospital I can atttest to the grim reality of seeing bed after bed of very elderly people, lying in a fetal position, just moaning with little awareness of their surroundings.

Of course but unfortunately we know the NHS is not limitless.

 

[Trainee neophyte]

Its one thing if it kills someone in late stage Dementia, its another if it kills someone who has a very weakened immune system, say transplant patient, somebody with COPD etc...... thats a group who may live perfectly good lives with minimal loss of quality of life but Covid could get.

So could influenza. So could a rhinovirus. So could any number of nasty little diseases. This has always been the case, but somehow we all managed to soldier on without stopping the world economy in its tracks. We didn't all wear masks when we visited relatives in hospital or in a care home. We didn't all practice social distancing, just in case. We didn't all stay at home and not work, because it was safer. Now, we do. There will be consequences. One major consequence will be the impoverishment of anyone relying on the state (which appears to be virtually everyone, at the moment). Anyone trying to run all business, also. About the only people not in trouble will be the billionaires who will be the only ones with any money to buy up all our assets, when we have to sell them to buy food. (That last bit might be hyperbole, but it depends on how much longer everyone has to not work, in order to save the 0.04% of the population, or whatever the number is.)

 

[Woody2Shoes]

I think that the current best guesstimate is that half the world population will be exposed to the virus and somewhere between 0.5% and 1% of those will die with it (some proportion will also suffer serious long-term health effects).
There is an argument that says that part of reason that the UK's statistics have been so bad is because our health service has been so effective in keeping people alive who - in less well-provided-for countries - would already have died of something else.
I agree with those who say that our healthcare system sometimes tends to keep people alive because it technically can, not because 'quality of life' is carefully weighed up. A friend's 87 year-old mother has been in hospital for eightteen months in a near vegetative state - no-one has had the wit/cojones to let nature take its course, to the distress of all concerned. There are very difficult ethical/legal arguments here which I can understand medics not wanting to get bogged down in.

 

[RobinBHM]

So could influenza. So could a rhinovirus. So could any number of nasty little diseases.

yes but Ive not seen ICU departments overflowing from those, so perhaps you are indulging in whataboutery

 

[RobinBHM]

We didn't all wear masks when we visited relatives in hospital or in a care home. We didn't all practice social distancing, just in case. We didn't all stay at home and not work, because it was safer. Now, we do

yes because we havent had a pandemic like this since the Spanish flu.....I believe that didnt end too well

most people are working, we have found socially distant ways to do it

 

[RobinBHM]

but it depends on how much longer everyone has to not work, in order to save the 0.04% of the population, or whatever the number is.

the death rate has been kept down to manageable numbers because the whole world took action, so you are conflating 2 different arguments.


Countries that locked down much harder and faster using massive test, trace and quarantine like South Korea, Germany, Singapore have had less economic damage. Countries that put profit before people, have actually done more economic damage

 

[RobinBHM]

Of course but unfortunately we know the NHS is not limitless.

nor the economy.....Im concerned about extending the furlough scheme TBH, will it help get businesses over the hill and keep going or is it just delaying the inevitable

 

[Oddbod]

You find a way to do it as best you can. I could equally say why should someone lose their business, have all their workers redundant and their families lose their house just to protect your elderly mother?
You admit you want to continue with aspects of your life, why not other peoples? You seem to be the selfish one in this scenario.

Don't try to twist what I said & posting ridiculous whataboutery like the above only serves to highlight you don't have a rational response.

 

[Rorschach]

yes but Ive not seen ICU departments overflowing from those, so perhaps you are indulging in whataboutery

Go speak to a doctor who has worked in ICU in the last 10 years, they will tell you we have had several winters where ICU's were almost at breaking point with winter respiratory bugs. (Often simply diagnosed as flu for simplicity as they never test, too many potential candidates)

 

[Oddbod]

I never said you were wrong, I just said you are oversimplifying in order to vilify those that understand the reality of the world we live in.

That list certainly doesn't include you.

 

[Rorschach]

Don't try to twist what I said & posting ridiculous whataboutery like the above only serves to highlight you don't have a rational response.

You think I don't have a rational response, I don't think you have one either

 

[Dibs-h]

I have just listened to the BBC reporting of the situation in Birmingham and some surrounding areas, where the R rate is very elevated. I come from the midlands and for various family reasons I am plugged in to a degree of medical and pathology information there. What the BBC does not tell you (presumably for PC reasons?) is that much of the area seeing a high incidence of cases is largely populated by Asian and Indian families. Not only is their risk from Covid 19 higher for some reason, but also the social realities and culture tends to mean that families of elderly, middle aged and young live in the same household in a denser fashion than in say rural Kent where I live now.

Might just be a timing issue.

I have seen a few reports on the BBC & C4 news about such things. I did see several reports by the BBC about Oldham and all the things you mentioned above were covered. They even had a local GP walk them round a neighborhood and talk about multi-generational households etc. and the impacts on them.

Admittedly not recently but a few weeks into things.

 

[selectortone]

See that's the problem, even on here if you say "we should accept it's going to kill people who are already pretty ill" you are shot down in flames......... "all lives are priceless" sorry but they are not, otherwise the government would not put a limit on NHS spending.
What we really need is a virus which picks off angry passive aggressive people

Love the winky face. My daughter suffers from ulcerative colitis, a chronic, debilitating and generally really nasty condition that is kept at a manageable level with meds that unfortunately suppress her immune system. She's a secondary school teacher and she's just gone back to school last week (Boris says it's OK). She's bang in the firing line. Is she priceless or expendable?

 

[RobinBHM]

Go speak to a doctor who has worked in ICU in the last 10 years, they will tell you we have had several winters where ICU's were almost at breaking point with winter respiratory bugs. (Often simply diagnosed as flu for simplicity as they never test, too many potential candidates)

not compared to covid

and dont forget the covid patients were either left to die in care homes or discharged back into care homes, so whilst the govt claimed the NHS "coped" it only did so under false pretences.

I dont remember almost every other treatment cancelled due to winter respiratory bugs, so you arent really comparing like with like

 

[Rorschach]

Love the winky face. My daughter suffers from ulcerative colitis, a chronic, debilitating and generally really nasty condition that is kept at a manageable level with meds that unfortunately suppress her immune system. She's a secondary school and she's just gone back to school last week. She's bang in the firing line. Is she priceless or expendable?

IMO she would be be in the category that could shield at home. If the school were sensible they would allow teachers like her to work from home, doing remote classes for vulnerable children.

 

[Rorschach]

not compared to covid

and dont forget the covid patients were either left to die in care homes or discharged back into care homes, so whilst the govt claimed the NHS "coped" it only did so under false pretences.

I dont remember almost every other treatment cancelled due to winter respiratory bugs, so you arent really comparing like with like

In the past we didn't over react to a fairly innocuous disease, that's why.

 

[RobinBHM]

Love the winky face. My daughter suffers from ulcerative colitis, a chronic, debilitating and generally really nasty condition that is kept at a manageable level with meds that unfortunately suppress her immune system. She's a secondary school and she's just gone back to school last week. She's bang in the firing line. Is she priceless or expendable?

the problem is there is a conflation of "pretty ill people" with "people that live normal lives with a debilitating condition, but with treatment allows them a high quality of life" -both groups are at risk groups for covid.

does your daughter have a gluten free diet? -my wife has graves disease, an auto immune disease and one of the potential causes is gluten -it causes a "leaky Gut".

the real difficulty with auto immune diseases is there is very little scientific evidence to back up any holistic treatments.

 

[selectortone]

IMO she would be be in the category that could shield at home. If the school were sensible they would allow teachers like her to work from home, doing remote classes for vulnerable children.

Meanwhile in the real world...