Social distancing, .. what's that?

[artie]

Can you elaborate as to why?

For the same reason that I don't have life insurance or health insurance. I believe in dealing with what happens, not worrying and preparing for things which may well never happen, with the added impetus that the vaccine may harm me.

In any case, the only vaccine in the UK that contains GMOs is Nasal Flu vaccine (Fluenz) but you are more likely to get GMO through your food chain.

Not if I can avoid it and believe me , I do my best.

As for cell strains, I am afraid those are the only way we have of replicating some of the inactivated viruses that are needed for the vaccines and unlike food products, the list of vaccine ingredients may include products used during the manufacturing process, even if they do not remain in the finished product.

Why would they list something that's not in it?

There is also absolutely no scientific evidence that cell lines cause any issues when ingested but that obviously isn't relevant to this discussion...

Is there any scientific evidence that they don't cause any issues when ingested? or is that not relevant?

 

[Rorschach]

My Dad lived until he was 100, and only died then because he had an accident.

At 86, he built an extension on their bungalow, digging foundations by hand.

I would hesitate to write off everyone over 80 as having one foot in the grave.

I didn't. I just pointed out that the average age of those dying is older than the average life expectancy.

Your father was clearly quite exceptional and good for him, my own father was basically crippled from his early 60's and died in his early 70's in a pretty bad state, if he had lived long enough C19 would have seen him off for certain. Meanwhile I have a family member at nearly 90, been fighting cancer for almost 30 years and has been exposed to C19 with seemingly no effect, the delay to cancer treatment this year has been devastating though. There are always exceptions but we don't base a nationwide policy around those exceptions.

 

[Bacms]

I am being pulled in again so stay safe everyone and see you in a while

For the same reason that I don't have life insurance or health insurance. I believe in dealing with what happens, not worrying and preparing for things which may well never happen, with the added impetus that the vaccine may harm me.

Why would they list something that's not in it?

For this thing called transparency which is what people like you are claiming they haven't. They are used in the manufacturing process and therefore it is possible that some trace amount remains. It is the same reason that some foods have a label saying they may contain traces of nuts but they aren't listed on the ingredients but the food industry does not need to specify it may also contain traces of animal hairs, rat poo, etc

Is there any scientific evidence that they don't cause any issues when ingested? or is that not relevant?

Actually there is plenty since they are heavily regulated for both safety and ethical reasons and any drug/vaccine that uses needs to be subjected to clinical trials to assess safety.
Here are good starting points:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4453835/https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7325846/

 

[billw]

I'm laughing at the insinuations that the scientific community is some sort of maverick cabal staffed by wannabe Bond villains, rather than a lot of scientists working within strict guidelines, laws, and ethical values.

 

[Droogs]

Rorschach, one of the hypothesis being put forward as to why the number of cancer patients being badly affected by Covid-19 is in fact a lot lower than expected is due to the fact that those undergoing chemo are so loaded with steroids that the virus doesn't get a toe hold

 

[Rorschach]

Rorschach, one of the hypothesis being put forward as to why the number of cancer patients being badly affected by Covid-19 is in fact a lot lower than expected is due to the fact that those undergoing chemo are so loaded with steroids that the virus doesn't get a toe hold

Great for those undergoing Chemo then, not great for those on other treatments or had their operations delayed by 4 months.

 

[Blackswanwood]

I didn't. I just pointed out that the average age of those dying is older than the average life expectancy.

Your father was clearly quite exceptional and good for him, my own father was basically crippled from his early 60's and died in his early 70's in a pretty bad state, if he had lived long enough C19 would have seen him off for certain. Meanwhile I have a family member at nearly 90, been fighting cancer for almost 30 years and has been exposed to C19 with seemingly no effect, the delay to cancer treatment this year has been devastating though. There are always exceptions but we don't base a nationwide policy around those exceptions.

You may be right about the average age of those dying with Covid-19 but it's worth noting that having achieved age 84 on average males live for circa 6 years more and females for 7 years. Average life expectancy is easily misunderstood.

As with all this stuff everyone is entitled to their view. I personally don't subscribe to a view that we should isolate all the old people/vulnerable people and let everyone else get on with it. Equally I don't think life can stop while we wait for a vaccine or indeed that the current situation is satisfactory.

It does seem that any discussion on Covid 19 comes back to the same binary points being made ... although in fairness this time we have also had a meander through a Dan Brown novel as well!

 

[Rorschach]

On the topic of Social Distancing. Just watched the kids coming out of the local secondary school (lots of schools around me but this one I can observe directly). As you might expect, no social distancing from the kids. Boys fighting and messing around, showing off in front of the girls, the girls gathered together in large groups laughing at the boys and pretending to be all grown up. I am sure some of them are all in the same "bubble" in school but they can't all be especially when you can clearly see they are a mix of ages.
I don't blame them of course, they are kids and they know they are safe.

 

[Rorschach]

You may be right about the average age of those dying with Covid-19 but it's worth noting that having achieved age 84 on average males live for circa 6 years more and females for 7 years. Average life expectancy is easily misunderstood.

As with all this stuff everyone is entitled to their view. I personally don't subscribe to a view that we should isolate all the old people/vulnerable people and let everyone else get on with it. Equally I don't think life can stop while we wait for a vaccine or indeed that the current situation is satisfactory.

It does seem that any discussion on Covid 19 comes back to the same binary points being made ... although in fairness this time we have also had a meander through a Dan Brown novel as well!

Yes I understand that a healthy 84yr old isn't going to drop dead, but there are also plenty of unhealthy 84 yr olds that are just hanging on. The fact that the majority of deaths were from care homes shows that those dying were old and "in the waiting room" anyway, most people don't stay in care homes for very long.

 

[Selwyn]

My Dad lived until he was 100, and only died then because he had an accident.

At 86, he built an extension on their bungalow, digging foundations by hand.

I would hesitate to write off everyone over 80 as having one foot in the grave.

Your father was the exception not the rule

 

[doctor Bob]

You may be right about the average age of those dying with Covid-19 but it's worth noting that having achieved age 84 on average males live for circa 6 years more and females for 7 years. Average life expectancy is easily misunderstood.

As with all this stuff everyone is entitled to their view. I personally don't subscribe to a view that we should isolate all the old people/vulnerable people and let everyone else get on with it. Equally I don't think life can stop while we wait for a vaccine or indeed that the current situation is satisfactory.

It does seem that any discussion on Covid 19 comes back to the same binary points being made ... although in fairness this time we have also had a meander through a Dan Brown novel as well!

This is the thing, at present it's very binary. To me in a perfect world we should be going about our business with very well worked social distancing and hygene in place. But people being people seem to find this impossible. How difficult is it to wash your hands regularly and avoid breathing in peoples faces!!

 

[Droogs]

It would seem from the evidence = extremely difficult

 

[Selwyn]

You may be right about the average age of those dying with Covid-19 but it's worth noting that having achieved age 84 on average males live for circa 6 years more and females for 7 years. Average life expectancy is easily misunderstood.

As with all this stuff everyone is entitled to their view. I personally don't subscribe to a view that we should isolate all the old people/vulnerable people and let everyone else get on with it. Equally I don't think life can stop while we wait for a vaccine or indeed that the current situation is satisfactory.

It does seem that any discussion on Covid 19 comes back to the same binary points being made ... although in fairness this time we have also had a meander through a Dan Brown novel as well!

But surely it is better to isolate the old who do't have to work than to isolate everyone and tank the economy? Everyone will become poorer in the end and then there will be more health problems.

Put simply we need to keep on as we are but continue to reinforce public health messages

 

[artie]

How difficult is it to wash your hands regularly and avoid breathing in peoples faces!!

Not difficult at all, but is slathering our hands in antibacterial gel every few minutes helping or hurting?

 

[artie]

But surely it is better to isolate the old

I think it's a mistake to be ageist regarding health.

Maybe better to isolate the vulnerable. After all a 40 year old may be in worse physical condition than a 75 yo.

 

[Selwyn]

I think it's a mistake to be ageist regarding health.

Maybe better to isolate the vulnerable. After all a 40 year old may be in worse physical condition than a 75 yo.

Well in the case of Covid, the statistics say that the most likely to die are the old and the vulnerable. Its just about being pragmatic and sensible. Not locking down and tanking peoples businesses

 

[artie]

Well in the case of Covid, the statistics say that the most likely to die are the old and the vulnerable. Its just about being pragmatic and sensible. Not locking down and tanking peoples businesses

ah yes statistics, but couldn't you be pragmatic and substitute old with vulnerable? Then a 75 year old who regularly runs marathons won't lose his freedom.

 

[billw]

How difficult is it to wash your hands regularly and avoid breathing in peoples faces!!

The difficulty lies in being told to do it, rather than doing it through your own free will.

 

[Blackswanwood]

This is the thing, at present it's very binary. To me in a perfect world we should be going about our business with very well worked social distancing and hygene in place. But people being people seem to find this impossible. How difficult is it to wash your hands regularly and avoid breathing in peoples faces!!

I agree. I'm not sure there is an answer that will please everyone but the next best thing is probably one where everyone feels equally hacked off. A friend of mine lives in Sweden and has a view that they have done quite well as there is more of a natural tendency to accept compromise and then stick to what has been agreed.

To my mind the view of "it's not a serious illness and take some collateral damage amongst the older members of society" is flawed and not an acceptable approach. (And no need to get defensive Rorschach - you are entitled to your view and it's okay for us to have different perspectives!). Equally though we need to get the economy moving so we cannot stay in a permanent lockdown. The answer lies in finding a compromise that to the extent it increases the risk for the vulnerable offers them the extra support they need while allowing more of a semblance of normality to resume.

 

[Rorschach]

I am happy to compromise, in fact I even offered a compromise solution.