Shoulder planes, which one?

[Jacob]

Shoulder planes do a lot more than just tidy up tennon shoulders/cheeks.

It's all I've ever used them for. Too fine for a rebate plane

.......... I find the 073 a bit large and the veritas is my go to.

I think those heavy Record 073s etc , even the 311, are more for big shoulders on door rails, which can be up to 12" wide on a trad door. Not for small work at all.

i know not everybody likes the little knobs/handles but I do.
One comment is that unless you can get a really good sharp edge you will not get a true feel as to how they perform

True. Also the rail needs to be firmly held in a vice or the cut may chatter.

 

[Jacob]

....

Living in England where a moving fillister is plentiful, there's no practical need for a 78 or record's version of the same.

Not that plentiful, nor practical compared to a 78

Both stanley and sargent versions had very soft blades - something that is done on purpose, often on site work tools.

They are bench tools

Even worse than a 78 is buying a very cheap 78 without a fence, nicker and depth stop thinking that those can always be found later. There are more planes without those parts than there are parts.

Well thats how all the old woody rebate planes come and they were probably one of the most used planes of all. The 78 fence, nicker and depth stop aren't as much use as you might expect, which is why they get left behind and lost.

 

[D_W]

Not that plentiful, nor practical compared to a 78

They are bench tools

Well thats how all the old woody rebate planes come and they were probably one of the most used planes of all. The 78 fence, nicker and depth stop aren't as much use as you might expect, which is why they get left behind and lost.

There are definitely some folks catering to american buyers for the moving fillisters then. I have one that I paid the moon for because it was a griffiths plane unused and I have a bunch of griffiths stuff. It was about $235 - which I still can't justify, but comparing it to a modern plane of about the same price, it's 5 times the plane.

That said, I must have three others right now that averaged about $60.

if someone is going to cut rebates, there is nothing else close.

There's some subtlety in my original response here. This is an old question that comes up often. "OK, I have __ for hand tools and am getting started, but now that I have ___" (usually several bench planes and a block plane and maybe a shave), I need to get a shoulder plane and am looking to get more into hand tools.

I have no issue with someone buying a shoulder plane - it's a hobby. Anyone can buy anything they want. The dynamic here is if someone is really looking to use hand tools more, they usually aren't - they want to use hand tools like they'd use a power tool. A shoulder plane ends up being a very seldom used tool and it's brought in to try to do things that other tools would've done better. Sometimes that would be attempting to cut small rebates (moving fillister) and sometimes that's cleaning out long grain or cross grain (skew rebate plane).

by on the ground, I don't mean that there's one at every boot sale, but rather that some looking around with dealers there, you can find one. I've bought all of the joinery planes that i've gotten from the UK (H&R, a set of beaders, etc) through dealers in the UK that people in the UK would think is too high of a price, but compared to what you'd find here ,it's still cheap. I get the cheap thing - but it goes out the window when a $100 moving fillister plane is considered expensive and a clifton smoother isn't.

I have a bunch of moving fillisters for a different reason - I use one of them on a regular basis. I have the other because I think I may want to build a few down the road. I no longer have a 78 or shoulder plane, because I could absolutely not ever figure out where to use either one.

I'll post a list of things that I think I'd want to have before considering a shoulder plane in the next post - this is from the aspect of working by hand, not working a little by hand and "burning to buy up to the next step" of a C-schwartz type of thing.

 

[D_W]

Bench planes
Bench chisels
A couple of mortise chisels
Moving fillister plane
A couple of skew rebate planes - one relatively narrow and another one wider
An inexpensive plow plane (if any are left) similar to the plastic handled marples
Several spokeshaves - at least one with a convex sole and perhaps two with flat - one for fine work and one not
Reasonable set of H&Rs
Reasonable set of beading planes
A small set of dado planes
A gaggle of saws
A collection of files and a flat plane bed float (for joinery)
At least one chisel that's fairly long with significant width, but can be struck
Half a dozen marking guages, pin, wheel and knife
A panel gauge
Half a dozen mortise gauges with at least one made fixed pins for the mortise chisel I use the most\
A pair of *good* squares with a hardened head and rule

I'd have paring chisels and paring gouges before a shoulder plane, too. Maybe not everyone would use these, but I've used even incannel patternmaker's gouges sometimes more in a month than I've ever used shoulder planes in total

I wouldn't give up any one single item in that list - and I'm sure i'm forgetting something - to trade for a shoulder plane to work by hand.

 

[G S Haydon]

Shoulder

Moving Fillister, choose your poison.

 

[mikej460]

An LN 140 Skew does the same job (with the moveable fence fitted)

 

[Jacob]

What I found with the 78 "moving fillister" was that with nicker and fence in place it's good for starting a rebate but once the wall is established then better without fence or nicker, cut down to the line then clean up the wall with one or two strokes with the plane on its side.
You can do exactly the same with an old woody rebate plane but using your thumb as a fence, starting the rebate just clear of the line but cutting back to it at the finish. Ditto with a 78 without nicker or fence.
Whichever you use the depth stop is fairly useless and it's better just to work down to the line.
This is why I think of them as "novelty" planes - they look handy but don't work as well as a simpler skew rebate plane working to gauge lines.

 

[D_W]

What I found with the 78 "moving fillister" was that with nicker and fence in place it's good for starting a rebate but once the wall is established then better without fence or nicker, cut down to the line then clean up the wall with one or two strokes with the plane on its side.
You can do exactly the same with an old woody rebate plane but using your thumb as a fence, starting the rebate just clear of the line but cutting back to it at the finish. Ditto with a 78 without nicker or fence.
Whichever you use the depth stop is fairly useless and it's better just to work down to the line.
This is why I think of them as "novelty" planes - they look handy but don't work as well as a simpler skew rebate plane working to gauge lines.

this is somewhat opposite with a moving fillister.

On a moving fillister, the nicker is set to establish the width of the cut, and the iron is set in from the cut wall slightly so that it does not actually touch the inside of the rebate. There is a tiny (like thousandths) little corner of uncut material, but it is pulled out by the shaving leaving.

if the iron is advanced all the way to the edge of the cut, it will rub against the side of the rebate and push the plane out, leaving a diagonal wall in the rebate that's more work to clean up.

For exceptionally important depth, it's better to finish the bottom to a gauge line, but it take less time with less faffing if the moving fillister nicker is allowed to establish the cut width.

This doesn't result in a nicker needing constant sharpening - a knife will cut deeply even if it's a little dull and you can take a lot of material off and have a really clean wall. If there's tearout on the bottom of the cut, or chatter, it can be planed the opposite direction with the rebate plane when finalizing the bottom.

The wooden planes have so much less friction that you'll work about 1 1/2 times faster with a lot less frustration.

I had the LV skew pair back when I pretty much bought everything I saw. Cutting floor transition pieces with those two planes as well as a wooden english boxed moving fillister, I sold the skew pair the next week. No amount of waxing could make the contest a close one.

 

[G S Haydon]

I agree David, I just wanted to illustrate the difference between the shoulder and moving fillister. Wooden for the win!

 

[Ollie78]

I have a record 311 which I have had for years, its fine and works well.
I recently got hold of a veritas medium shoulder plane and it is really very excellent.


Ollie

 

[hlvd]

An LN 140 Skew does the same job (with the moveable fence fitted)
View attachment 142401

I’d disagree, compared to a dedicated shoulder plane, the Skew Block Plane’s too top heavy with little bearing surface to accurately trim a shoulder.

 

[IWW]

I'm sure this discussion was had recently, with much the same responses.

I have 3 shoulder planes, large, medium & small - mainly because I like building planes!

Of these, I probably use the small one (1/2" blade width) the most, and almost never for trimming tenon shoulders - I just happen to do a fair bit of "small" work involving fine-fitting where it can be extremely handy.

I lusted after a shoulder plane for many years after I started 'serious' woodworking, until I finally made my own in the early 80s. It was quite a good "user" but I soon found it spent almost all of its time in the tool cupboard & very, very little time on the bench. Building furniture was my main task for about the first 30 years of my "career" & I very soon discovered typical furniture-sized tenon shoulders are a pita to trim with a shoulder-plane. They are far more easily finessed with a wide, sharp chisel as already mentioned. I still use the method we were taught in the 50's in school woodwork; saw on the waste side 1/32" or less from the scribe line, then chop down with a wide, sharp chisel. We were taught to 'undercut' ever-so-slightly to produce the required super-tight shoulder line, but it's not too difficult to chop at very close to a perfect 90 deg. if the edges are going to be visible:


Takes less time to do than to describe. The only time I'd use a shoulder plane to trim a tenon shoulder is if it is a very long one like the ends of this chunky trestle table, where the chisel method gets a bit tedious & I'm liable to lose concentration & allow the chisel to twist slightly:


I certainly wouldn't use a 78 or similar for this job unless desperate - you can't beat the easy, controllable cutting of a solid, low-angle, bevel-up plane when it comes to cutting across end-grain!

For the faces or cheeks of larger tenons, I try to just saw them accurately & tight to the line, but of course I don't always get them perfect straight off-saw, especially if they are the size of those in the pic. above. But any plane that can cut up to a shoulder will peel wood off across the grain no problem, and even a little spelching on the exit side is usually of minor concern as it will be well out of sight (I claim it's to let the air & excess glue out when assembling ). I tend to use my 78 here; crude it may be, but it even the "soft" blade in my 78 peels the wood off cross-grain just fine on the hardest woods, & I like it because it's relatively easy to change the set for heavy or light cuts as the situation demands.

So my take is also that a shoulder plane is a luxury bought (or made) mainly to impress shop visitors. There are many, many other tools that will repay their cost far more quickly than a shoulder plane, unless you do work that really requires their (somewhat limited) abilities, in which case you would already know what you need. If you feel your life will be empty because you don't have one, any size will do for a start. Later, when more experience informs you what you really need, you can hang onto it if it turns out to be the bees' knees for you, sell it & buy something more useful to you, or trade up/down to something that does suit....

Cheers,

 

[Jacob]

............

I very soon discovered typical furniture-sized tenon shoulders are a pita to trim with a shoulder-plane. They are far more easily finessed with a wide, sharp chisel as already mentioned. I still use the method we were taught in the 50's in school woodwork; saw on the waste side 1/32" or less from the scribe line, then chop down with a wide, sharp chisel. We were taught to 'undercut' ever-so-slightly to produce the required super-tight shoulder line, but it's not too difficult to chop at very close to a perfect 90 deg. if the edges are going to be visible:

Agree about the shoulder planes - just for long shoulders e.g. trad glazed doors with 12" lock rails and "gunstock" pattern reduced stiles.
Re Wide sharp chisel - I've got a short bladed but heavy 2 1/2" wide firmer apparently called a "gunstock" chisel (Salaman).
Just having a light bulb moment (searching for light bulb emoji )- it's nothing to do with guns it's for trimming gunstock door rail shoulders!
At that width you can only take a very fine shaving, but it will be a good straight line, for 2 1/2" at least.
PS and you can use it on the tapered part of the stile where you could not use a plane.

...........
\


So my take is also that a shoulder plane is a luxury bought (or made) mainly to impress shop visitors. There are many, many other tools that will repay their cost far more quickly than a shoulder plane, unless you do work that really requires their (somewhat limited) abilities, in which case you would already know what you need. If you feel your life will be empty because you don't have one, any size will do for a start. Later, when more experience informs you what you really need, you can hang onto it if it turns out to be the bees' knees for you, sell it & buy something more useful to you, or trade up/down to something that does suit....

Cheers,

Agree. I think of them as "novelty"planes in that they are over designed and not necessarily as useful as they look. In fact that applies to most of the well known expensive American offerings.
Tool designers don't really know how good their designs are until they have released them to the wild and seen how they get taken up.

 

[mark w]

I've got both the large and medium Veritas shoulder planes, the large one will do all the work of both sizes, the medium is not really necessary.
Whichever one you buy the key to getting it to work properly is to lap the sole on a flat surface with the blade set in it at working tension but retracted, you will find that even on a brand new shoulder plane the area just behind the blade will be lower than the front and back of the sole, the blade when set at working tension deflects the sole down at this point.
David Charlesworth demonstrated this perfectly in his DVD Furniture Making Techniques Five Topics.

 

[hlvd]

Just having a light bulb moment (searching for light bulb emoji )- it's nothing to do with guns it's for trimming gunstock door rail shoulders!
At that width you can only take a very fine shaving, but it will be a good straight line, for 2 1/2" at least.
PS and you can use it on the tapered part of the stile where you could not use a plane.

There’s a beautiful pair of gunstocked shouldered doors in one of the main entrances to Jolly’s in Bath.
They were so nice I had to take their picture.

 

[D_W]

I agree David, I just wanted to illustrate the difference between the shoulder and moving fillister. Wooden for the win!

apologies if that seemed a reference to your post. The wood and metal discussion sort of goes out the door if the plane is just being used for light finish work. I never really got the full effect of how much faster a wooden moving fillister plane will complete a job until using one for trim for the floors upstairs.

the same with metal planes - until I had built a bunch of try planes and knew just about exactly how long it took to size a body from a beech blank, I didn't know how much faster using a wooden plane to do the sizing was. And shockingly, despite having an iron that doesn't wear as long, the design of the plane allowed the wooden plane to plane more wood volume by a long shot than a metal plane with a longer wearing iron.

Short of someone living nearby, though, I don't have a great suggestion for a beginner on refitting a moving fillister if it's moved (a lot) seasonally over a century and a half.

Also reminds me that selling the stanley version would probably be a good idea, too, before nobody is interested in them at all. I don't know what they're worth, but ebay says about $150. I don't think I paid much less than that and thanks to tax law changes in the US, I'm going to have to figure out what it was or I'll be taxed on the entire sale value as income.

 

[Derek Cohen (Perth Oz)]

Fitting a drawer bottom to a bow-fronted drawer. The shoulder plane is a great help here. It is just one of several tools used. When you need it, you need it!

(from my website) ...

A washer is the tool of choice to scribe the front rebate – stick the pencil in the hole and run it along the drawer back.

A jack plane and spokeshave remove the waste to the scribed line.

Score the rebate. This is important also as to prevent any tearout.

I used a Record #043 to plane the rebate. This is a small plough and better able to work along a curve than a larger plough plane.

To avoid planing over the scribed line, I worked to within 1mm of it …

… pared back to the line …

… and then cleaned up with a small shoulder plane.

The completed job.

I have three shoulder planes. I would not be without them.

Regards from Perth

Derek

 

[mikej460]

I’d disagree, compared to a dedicated shoulder plane, the Skew Block Plane’s too top heavy with little bearing surface to accurately trim a shoulder.

Given the different options outlined on this thread, I think it is fair to say use whatever does the job for you. For the record, as well as the LN 140, I have a Record 3110, a Clifton 410 and a Stanley 78.

 

[pe2dave]

For a tenon, am I the only one who finishes them with a hand router? So easy and oh so accurate.

 

[Derek Cohen (Perth Oz)]

For a tenon, am I the only one who finishes them with a hand router? So easy and oh so accurate.

Dave, a hand router is great for tenon cheeks. I do this as well if the tenon is a little wonky, or if I am unsure if it is wonky. Tenon shoulders are 90% tuned with a chisel, and 10% with a shoulder plane, the latter is it is easy to see and the amount is too small to easily use a chisel.

Shoulder planes are great for rebate shoulders and mouldings, as well as inside drawer cases (although I prefer a rebate block plane here).

Regards from Perth

Derek