lurker
Le dullard de la commune
3 hours!
Should it be Sharp Out of the Box?
- Thread starter Droogs
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Phil Pascoe
Established Member
I'm yer man!Phil Pascoe specialises in selling blunt chisels
Phil Pascoe
Established Member
Did you mean impossible?
Phil Pascoe
Established Member
I just knew I would feature in this conversation somewhere along the way.
lurker
Le dullard de la commune
That was a malicious slander!!I apologise Lurker. Missed you that time. Next thing someone will be bringing up you being light fingered. xxx
Trevanion
Greatest Of All Time
I just knew I would feature in this conversation somewhere along the way.
How does it feel to be a forum legend?
Maybe for the wrong reasons though...
Phil Pascoe
Established Member
That was a pleonasm!!
I understand your views on this sort of thing and think in general that they are well founded. However, there is perhaps a danger of drifting into being dogmatic.
I bought a Veritas Low Angle Jack from new and couldn't care less whether or not it was sharp out of the box (FWIW I would say that it was about 85% sharp). What it is though, is absolutely flat and the sides are absolutely square to the sole. It's the plane which I use to finish off the surfaces I've flattened with my
5 1/2 and 6 Records which I love but they are just not quite as perfectly finished.
The point is that I would suggest that there are advantages to having a plane made to the best modern standards and other than the price, I can see no disadvantages. You are absolutley right to say that you can get by without one but IMO that is no reason to deny oneself something made to the highest standards. Is it worth saving for a Clifton, Veritas or Lie Neilsen? In my opinion, one would not be disappointed with what one gets for the money.
David C
In Memorium
Of course it shouldn't! If it did the cost would be much higher.
I am fond of saying that expecting an edge tool to to be sharp out of the box, is like expecting your car to go without petrol.
David Charlesworth
I am fond of saying that expecting an edge tool to to be sharp out of the box, is like expecting your car to go without petrol.
David Charlesworth
I'm not advocating that the tool should be much sharper out of the box, but I'm fairly sure I could prepare 10 LN irons in an hour from new, and if it was necessary to have machine assist, more than that.
In the straight razor industry, there used to be (maybe still is) a strange dynamic. Dovo calls their razors shave ready, but they're prepared quickly on a rotary stone and then brief hand honing and stropping. If the retailer who sells razors offers to step up the sharpness for buyers, the warranty is void. The language doesn't appear to cover individuals honing their own razors, but the term "abuse" is mentioned and it's possible to abuse razors (and would be possible to weasel out of a mediocre razor by claiming the damage was due to abuse by the owner). I've never claimed warranty on anything, so I couldn't say how they operate (their retailers offer to hone razors, and I guess they decided they'd use the term "professionally honed by another party" to get out of servicing anything the dealers modify).
But, a sharp straight razor with no good care lasts about a week. At the end of week two, it's unusable. The factory is in germany, so what does a beginner do? The sooner they learn to take care of their own razor, the better (dovo offers some products, too).
If someone bought a new plane sharp, they'd potentially damage the blade just inserting it. The forums would fill with critiques of the sharpening methods, especially if there was a back bevel applied and owners would feel entitled to return sharpened planes because of their assumption that they didn't last long enough or weren't sharpened well enough.
But it wouldn't cost that much to do well. Perhaps $10 in labor and overhead. And a bored workman.
In the straight razor industry, there used to be (maybe still is) a strange dynamic. Dovo calls their razors shave ready, but they're prepared quickly on a rotary stone and then brief hand honing and stropping. If the retailer who sells razors offers to step up the sharpness for buyers, the warranty is void. The language doesn't appear to cover individuals honing their own razors, but the term "abuse" is mentioned and it's possible to abuse razors (and would be possible to weasel out of a mediocre razor by claiming the damage was due to abuse by the owner). I've never claimed warranty on anything, so I couldn't say how they operate (their retailers offer to hone razors, and I guess they decided they'd use the term "professionally honed by another party" to get out of servicing anything the dealers modify).
But, a sharp straight razor with no good care lasts about a week. At the end of week two, it's unusable. The factory is in germany, so what does a beginner do? The sooner they learn to take care of their own razor, the better (dovo offers some products, too).
If someone bought a new plane sharp, they'd potentially damage the blade just inserting it. The forums would fill with critiques of the sharpening methods, especially if there was a back bevel applied and owners would feel entitled to return sharpened planes because of their assumption that they didn't last long enough or weren't sharpened well enough.
But it wouldn't cost that much to do well. Perhaps $10 in labor and overhead. And a bored workman.
Phil Pascoe
Established Member
The way the law is going in this Country soon no retailer will sell anything sharp at all in case they gets sued when someone cuts themself taking it out of the box.
Eric The Viking
Established Member
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" ... blunt as a drunk windowcleaner."
Never heard that one before. Outstanding.
Never heard that one before. Outstanding.
billw
The Tattooed One
Well firstly I have found buying old tools more useful because I've had to take them apart, obviously I refer to planes rather than chisels here, and thus not just learned how they work but also how to adjust them, clean them, and ensure they're set up correctly when put back together.
Secondly I bought a new Stanley plane because I wanted to see the difference between old and new, and the new ones are a massive pile of absolute trash. I've been running the sole of my No 4 over 100 grit wet and dry every now and then for what seems like eternity and I'm still nowhere near getting the damned thing smooth. The blade wasn't too bad though.
The whole thing about expecting an expensive tool to work straight out of the box - I mean if the buyer doesn't know that tools need preparation then what are they going to do when it goes blunt? Bin it?
Secondly I bought a new Stanley plane because I wanted to see the difference between old and new, and the new ones are a massive pile of absolute trash. I've been running the sole of my No 4 over 100 grit wet and dry every now and then for what seems like eternity and I'm still nowhere near getting the damned thing smooth. The blade wasn't too bad though.
The whole thing about expecting an expensive tool to work straight out of the box - I mean if the buyer doesn't know that tools need preparation then what are they going to do when it goes blunt? Bin it?
Bill, if you have more than what will lap easily, you need a body file or a good bastage file to draw file material off faster.
Wet and dry isn't the right paper for plane soles. It's got hard and sharp particles, but they are fragile and under hand pressure, they fracture very quickly and you're effectively using something made to become fine and slow as it's used, but stay sharp (for very hard metal).
You have cast, which is relatively soft, and need coarse 80 grit red or yellow or white alumina abrasive paper. The abrasive is tough, it dulls a little bit, etc. A psa or adhesive roll type is best so that you don't dub the sides of the plane. That type of abrasive lap will give you a way to check your progress filing from time to time and then you can keep filing the high spots.
you'll have less convexity with the sole when you're done, too.
Wet and dry isn't the right paper for plane soles. It's got hard and sharp particles, but they are fragile and under hand pressure, they fracture very quickly and you're effectively using something made to become fine and slow as it's used, but stay sharp (for very hard metal).
You have cast, which is relatively soft, and need coarse 80 grit red or yellow or white alumina abrasive paper. The abrasive is tough, it dulls a little bit, etc. A psa or adhesive roll type is best so that you don't dub the sides of the plane. That type of abrasive lap will give you a way to check your progress filing from time to time and then you can keep filing the high spots.
you'll have less convexity with the sole when you're done, too.
billw
The Tattooed One
Another piece of invaluable forum advice, thank you!
Trevanion
Greatest Of All Time
Perhaps they don't need to be razor-sharp straight out of the box, but I would like to expect the cutting edge to be ground square and not on a rather large slant like some "premium" manufacturers which makes it a right pain to correct initially.
AESamuel
Established Member
If I'm buying a tool new I don't care if it's sharpened or not, I'm most likely going to resharpen it straight away anyhow. I know how I like my tools to work.
However, if I'm buying a premium tool I do expect it to be in a fully prepared, sharpenable state; a flat back, and a standard primary bevel ground square across.
If I'm buying a budget tool then I don't expect the blade to be sharpened or prepared, because if the materials are good, it's the lack of preparation where you are saving money. Same goes for second hand tools, if it's been used it's been used, and it's up to you to evaluate the condition of the tool you're buying.
However, if I'm buying a premium tool I do expect it to be in a fully prepared, sharpenable state; a flat back, and a standard primary bevel ground square across.
If I'm buying a budget tool then I don't expect the blade to be sharpened or prepared, because if the materials are good, it's the lack of preparation where you are saving money. Same goes for second hand tools, if it's been used it's been used, and it's up to you to evaluate the condition of the tool you're buying.
Trevanion
Greatest Of All Time
I was just looking through the FB marketplace to see if there are any diamonds in the extraordinarily rough and I came across a guy offering a sharpening service for £10 per chisel/plane blade. I probably sharpen my chisel maybe every 20-30 minutes of continuous work they do (That can be over the span of a full day or multiple days though) so that would work out at £20-30 per hour of use just for the chisel sharpening 
