should i avoid using a grinding wheel on Japanese chisels

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I'm with Matthew on the essential impossibility of honing flat, freehand (on a cutter not hollow ground).

I'm with Jacob in that there is a difference in 'rounding under' and everything else. I'm positive that Japanese craftsman would err on the side of rounding under, be it ever so slight, the effect at the cutting edge is entirely and exactly the same as Jacob's method. I am practically positive that the Japanese do not hone a hump into the cutter right behind the edge, nor does Jacob's method. Again, if anything, they remove an extra bit of steel right behind the edge which can only be achieved by a slight lowering of the cutter during its movement on the stone. It starts at the desired angle (which of course is the 'flat' grind in the first place) and never moves higher. There is not an attempt, conscious or otherwise, to raise the angle above that of the flat grind. Otherwise, then, they would simply be introducing a higher microbevel which they do not do. Accordingly, there are really only two options - hold it PERFECTLY at the starting angle or DIP IT - little or a lot, doesn't matter one whit at the cutting edge though the attempt is to hold it on the 'grind' angle.

This all could easily be tested by holding a straight edge against a traditional Japanese plane iron, honed by an experienced Japanese craftsman, and viewing under relatively small magnification. The angle will be seen as highest at the edge and going lower behind it. You might find 1 out of every Xth cutter that might be considered 'perfectly' flat at that particular low magnification. The 'error' (it's really not an error just not perfectly flat which they consider the ideal) on the rest would go the other way - lower behind the edge.
 
Flat stone, Flat bevel; this can't happen any other way.

middle_1316249599.jpg


(except hot glue I suppose :roll: )

BugBear

PS; There's more in the thread I linked to before.
 
Jacob":mbvv3ips said:
bugbear":mbvv3ips said:
.......
The Japanese tool also has (as you pointed out) a flat back, which Jacob doesn't really bother with.

BugBear
A lot of Japs don't bother either.

Normal sharpening would flatten it -if it isn't flattened, the cutting edge would encroach into the hollow/s and make the chisel useless.
 
I can see what you're driving at BB, but the requirement is for the two surfaces to mate perfectly - not necessarily both be flat.

The same effect is at work with the morse taper in a drill press or lathe.

It does however demonstrate that their strokes are consistent - remarkably consistent!
 
bugbear":3vngbumn said:
Flat stone, Flat bevel; this can't happen any other way.

middle_1316249599.jpg


(except hot glue I suppose :roll: )

BugBear

PS; There's more in the thread I linked to before.

This photo is not close enough nor sharp enough to prove that the bevel is being kept flat. Only a photo of a quality straight edge registered to the bevel and both under a bit of magnification would. I could take a photo of a distinctly rounded bevel on a honing stone at the same distance from camera and with the cutter positioned the same way and all would look flat.
 
They either stay at the "grind" angle or a little lower, never higher. Perfection is achieved, or Jacob's method. Take your pick. There are no other possibilities for what the Japanese would consider an adequately honed plane iron. Errors are under the grind angle, not higher, and this is only an error in theory since it produces a perfectly functional cutter.

A hollow ground iron with a higher microbevel is exactly equivalent to a flat ground iron ground at the microbevel angle. The one and only error to avoid in working with a flat ground cutter is producing a hump behind the edge at a higher angle than the edge. Any errors, again, by a skilled craftsman would ALWAYS be to the low side. They have to be.
 
CStanford":1owp4l8m said:
bugbear":1owp4l8m said:
Flat stone, Flat bevel; this can't happen any other way.

middle_1316249599.jpg


(except hot glue I suppose :roll: )

BugBear

PS; There's more in the thread I linked to before.

This photo is not close enough nor sharp enough to prove that the bevel is being kept flat. Only a photo of a quality straight edge registered to the bevel and both under a bit of magnification would. I could take a photo of a distinctly rounded bevel on a honing stone at the same distance from camera and with the cutter positioned the same way and all would look flat.

The entire blade is being supported, off balance, by the capillary attraction (casually "suction") of the honing fluid.

This needs a very narrow uniform gap to work, and the gap is defined by the surfaces of the stone and bevel.

It's the fact that the blade is standing up that means the bevel is flat, not any attempted photogrammetry of the (hidden!!) bevel.

BugBear
 
CStanford":3saaeg9u said:
bugbear":3saaeg9u said:
Flat stone, Flat bevel; this can't happen any other way.

middle_1316249599.jpg


(except hot glue I suppose :roll: )

BugBear

PS; There's more in the thread I linked to before.

This photo is not close enough nor sharp enough to prove that the bevel is being kept flat. Only a photo of a quality straight edge registered to the bevel and both under a bit of magnification would. I could take a photo of a distinctly rounded bevel on a honing stone at the same distance from camera and with the cutter positioned the same way and all would look flat.

If the bevel was rounded, to "stick" to the stone it would have to be sitting in a perfectly corresponding concave across the stone at an angle, which I would have thought so unlikely as to be impossible. It's nothing to do with the accuracy of the photo.
 
Matthew's example of a Morse taper applies here.

I absolutely agree that the bevel has taken on the shape of the stone at that particular spot and that the surface tension tension or other physical property of the water is assisting the whole phenomenon and that, in the main, it's flat. For all intents and purposes that's probably as perfectly a flat cutter as can be produced in a workshop on a day in and day out basis. Were the cutter longer it probably wouldn't stand but what would we deduce from that? That it wasn't flat? I'm pretty sure that cutter would stand even if the bevel were slightly rounded under assuming the stone was of a corresponding shape (likely with a waterstone!). It's sitting in a pool of water.

I'm also positive that I have to tap pretty hard on a Morse taper drive center to get it out of the headstock.

It's as much a matter of complimentary shapes as anything else, especially where a rapidly eroding stone is in play.
 
thanks for the advice, i was just curious as no where can i find a video of a jap chisel being hollow ground but if it been done and the chisel works then ill give it a shot.
my thanks again.

cheers
TT
 
To answer your question I think the concern is the uneven movement of heat through laminated steel and the changing of the physical properties of the softer steel through high-speed grinding. The Japanese put great stock in laminated steel. Western manufacturers made perfectly lovely laminated irons but quit doing so when it became cost-effective simply to make them entirely out of the 'hard stuff' in the first place. If you think that the softer steel adds something to the equation, then it might be best not to use power grinding equipment.

IMO, there is a barely rebuttable presumption that fine Japanese tools should be used (sharpened, etc.) as they are by fine Japanese craftsmen. I don't understand the point of owning Japanese tools and then insinuating Western shop practices on tools from an entirely different tradition. Buy the whole hog, not just its squeal. You'll be happier in the long run. Pick a tradition and work in that tradition.
 
CStanford":3amrwr2k said:
Were the cutter longer it probably wouldn't stand but what would we deduce from that? That it wasn't flat? .

No; if the cutter doesn't stand, we can't infer anything. But if it does stand we can infer a very close match between the shapes of the bevel and stone.

Now, even if we were to assume a hollowed stone, the craftsman would still have to seat the bevel perfectly during the whole stroke; any variation would result in the curve of the bevel being different to the curve of the stone.and the blade wouldn't stand.

So we can infer no "dipping" or "raising" has taken place.

In practise, since the Japanese are careful to flatten their stones, the only hollow will be by the amount of stone worn away during the current sharpening, which will be minimal, so the "curve" will be flat to good tolerance.

BugBear
 
We'll never know for sure but I'd bet there are at least a dozen other locations on that stone where the cutter would not stand. And a long cutter wouldn't stand anywhere and it could dead flat to the last angstrom. It's meaningless, perhaps as meaningless as it standing on the spot it is. Might be flat, might not be flat.

Again, the only relevant and objective test would be registering a straight edge against the bevel and enhancing the view with a small bit of magnification, maybe a light behind the cutter, etc.

Find a photo of this and then you'd have something. All extraneous items are out of the analysis - capillary action/surface tension of water, the condition of the stone, whether or not the shop fan was running in a certain direction, the length of the cutter, etc. Too many variables!

In the end, it's all moot because it implies a level of perfection, precision, and utterly consistent workshop practice achieved by a country's entire population of craftsmen and this almost by definition cannot be the case. What is entirely relevant is that the error or 'intentional miss' as I would refer to it is rounded under. Unless you pull the cutter exclusively during honing (which the Japanese do not do), polishing all the way up the bevel almost guarantees that the miss will be a rounded under one anyway. You can prove it to yourself in your own shop. The 'rounded under' intentional miss is essentially baked into the process of honing the entire bevel. It's inextricable except for what otherwise on occasion amounts to a Friday afternoon diversion or parlour trick (I always wanted to spell parlor like that!). And it's doubtful such a coddled cutter works any better than a workaday cutter slightly rounded under - one that likely wouldn't stand on a freshly maintained waterstone.

Trust me, Jacob's method is more right than you think, and again something you can prove to yourself in your own shop.
 
I love his adjusting hammer...my kind of guy.....

Titemark brass plane hammer it is not.

And I'm sure that the cinder block was poured and trued to a tool-room standard. :mrgreen:

Not to mention you can clearly see him rounding the bevel under as he moves it on the stone. =D>

As I'm sure he was taught to do!
 
They only pick the finest cinder block but it must be followed by a rub on the pavement/sidewalk too :)

I like to see a hammer used with control and skill, just 'cos it's not a nice hammer don't mean it's not going to work.
 
CStanford":2nkmuhng said:
...
Not to mention you can clearly see him rounding the bevel under as he moves it on the stone. =D>
You have to ask - why would anybody not do a rounded (under) bevel? I've never heard a good answer to this. There isn't one.
 
CStanford":12zn4uze said:
We'll never know for sure but I'd bet there are at least a dozen other locations on that stone where the cutter would not stand. And a long cutter wouldn't stand anywhere and it could dead flat to the last angstrom. It's meaningless, perhaps as meaningless as it standing on the spot it is. Might be flat, might not be flat.

Again, the only relevant and objective test would be registering a straight edge against the bevel and enhancing the view with a small bit of magnification, maybe a light behind the cutter, etc.

Find a photo of this and then you'd have something. All extraneous items are out of the analysis - capillary action/surface tension of water, the condition of the stone, whether or not the shop fan was running in a certain direction, the length of the cutter, etc. Too many variables!
I think you're just having a problem admitting that you were wrong Charles... (hammer)

Cheers, Vann.
 
wow, he is ruff with his gear, 180 plane flips and throwing his planes about no wonder he has to keep adjusting it lol.
and the hammer......

TT
 

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